Grimrock

Secret Buttons - I have a potential answer for it (which is probably too late to squeeze into Legend of Grimrock 2, but could be done for Legend of Grimrock 3 - yes, I am expecting there to be a 3!)

So something that Wizardry 8 did that was pretty great (I don't recall if Wizardry 7 did it too?) - was that characters could "Spot" things that are not immediately visible. So you'd be walking along in Wizardry 8, and suddenly one of your characters says, "Over there!" And you'd turn, and there'd be three arrows that were not there a second ago. This would be a nice "skill" for Rogues to have (a specialty in but available to everyone?) - so that as you're cruising through the dungeon, the Rogue might say (or have a text box come up), with something like, "Hey! On the wall!"

Naturally, the button being spotted would have a DC (Difficulty Class) versus the Rogue's spot skill. So, unless someone is combing the walls, the Rogue has an off chance of spotting it even if they're not looking for it.

Sir Tawmis wrote:... characters could "Spot" things that are not immediately visible. So you'd be walking along in Wizardry 8, and suddenly one of your characters says, "Over there!" And you'd turn, and there'd be three arrows that were not there a second ago.

'Lands of Lore:The Throne of Chaos' did this, but it did not add visible arrows pointing to the button. I can see the reasoning for two types of players that would want this in a dungeon crawler. The first is the one who cannot see the dungeon well enough to make out the harder buttons. The second is the player that seeks to roleplay their party, and feels that the party should either notice the secret or not. Both of these make sense to me; I'm partial to that kind of play myself.

None* of the dungeon crawlers that I've played ever encouraged that kind of play. Dungeon crawlers are puzzle games across the board, with hack_n_slash combat in between the puzzles. The best RPGs that I've played focused most on dialog; almost none of the dungeon crawlers I've played did that. If they asked a question at all, it was 'yes' or 'no'.

I think the Lands of Lore method best, but there is merit in flashing the button if the PCs noticed it. I would hope that this behavior remain optional, because while all players are reliant on their PCs in combat, many players look to dungeoncrawlers as the ultimate hedge maze, and as something to solve personally.

*Actually one series has since come to mind. Realms of Arkania did seem to be more of an actual roleplaying game than other dungeoncrawlers I've played. It was very impressive too IMO. I don't recall if it called out secret doors.

Isaac wrote:

Sir Tawmis wrote:... characters could "Spot" things that are not immediately visible. So you'd be walking along in Wizardry 8, and suddenly one of your characters says, "Over there!" And you'd turn, and there'd be three arrows that were not there a second ago.

'Lands of Lore:The Throne of Chaos' did this, but it did not add visible arrows pointing to the button. I can see the reasoning for two types of players that would want this in a dungeon crawler. The first is the one who cannot see the dungeon well enough to make out the harder buttons. The second is the player that seeks to roleplay their party, and feels that the party should either notice the secret or not. Both of these make sense to me; I'm partial to that kind of play myself.

Hah! I should have picked something else as an example, other than arrows. It wouldn't have physical arrows to what was spotted. It'd just show it. So to give a better example, your characters in Wizardry 8 might be walking in a room, and one of them with a high Spot skill might say, "Over there!" And when you turn, there's a potion on the table that wasn't there before, because it had not been successfully spotted.

I had to dig through Youtube to find an example (but keep an eye on the barrel next to the table, no potion there until it's spotted)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 47n-0#t=92

Isaac wrote: *Actually one series has since come to mind. Realms of Arkania did seem to be more of an actual roleplaying game than other dungeoncrawlers I've played. It was very impressive too IMO. I don't recall if it called out secret doors.

Realms of Arkania is hands down, my favorite RPG, so you're speaking my language!

Sir Tawmis wrote:So to give a better example, your characters in Wizardry 8 might be walking in a room, and one of them with a high Spot skill might say, "Over there!" And when you turn, there's a potion on the table that wasn't there before, because it had not been successfully spotted.

I had to dig through Youtube to find an example (but keep an eye on the barrel next to the table, no potion there until it's spotted)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 47n-0#t=92

That is pretty neat. I once suggested similar to that for the traps in Fallout 3; that they be invisible unless triggered, or seen with a perception check.

Isaac wrote:

Sir Tawmis wrote:So to give a better example, your characters in Wizardry 8 might be walking in a room, and one of them with a high Spot skill might say, "Over there!" And when you turn, there's a potion on the table that wasn't there before, because it had not been successfully spotted.
I had to dig through Youtube to find an example (but keep an eye on the barrel next to the table, no potion there until it's spotted)...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 47n-0#t=92

That is pretty neat. I once suggested similar to that for the traps in Fallout 3; that they be invisible unless triggered, or seen with a perception check.

Exactly! Like you'd have to have a character with SPOT check (or Perception) skills. Neverwinter Nights also does this. Where if your Rogue has a perception skill, it has a chance of spotting traps. This is what I think would be kind of nice to spot the hidden buttons on the wall, so folks aren't going down the hall facing the wall one way, then turn around and go back and face it the other way, basically going down the same hall twice, side ways to make sure something isn't missed.

Sir Tawmis wrote:This is what I think would be kind of nice to spot the hidden buttons on the wall, so folks aren't going down the hall facing the wall one way, then turn around and go back and face it the other way, basically going down the same hall twice, side ways to make sure something isn't missed.

The snag I see with this is that if they don't make it optional that the PC find it for player ~that annoys the players that want to find it themselves; but if they do make it optional, then that devalues any stat or skill advancement that allows them to improve at seeing hidden features... in the games of those not opting for the PC call-outs.

**Some modders might not want their button found except by the astute or exceptionally thorough player; and may even add a prize in the secret for finding it... but that gets ruined if the PC calls it out in everyone's game.

It's a tricky thing to do ~right. But I think it that it can be done right.

Isaac wrote:

Sir Tawmis wrote:This is what I think would be kind of nice to spot the hidden buttons on the wall, so folks aren't going down the hall facing the wall one way, then turn around and go back and face it the other way, basically going down the same hall twice, side ways to make sure something isn't missed.

The snag I see with this is that if they don't make it optional that the PC find it for player ~that annoys the players that want to find it themselves; but if they do make it optional, then that devalues any stat or skill advancement that allows them to improve at seeing hidden features... in the games of those not opting for the PC call-outs.

**Some modders might not want their button found except by the astute or exceptionally thorough player; and may even add a prize in the secret for finding it... but that gets ruined if the PC calls it out in everyone's game.

It's a tricky thing to do ~right. But I think it that it can be done right.

Aye and it's pretty easy to do too. All it takes is the implementation of a classic pen and paper RPG feature that allows the game master to resemble anything subceptive. Basically it's a hidden percentage-based "luck" stat that grants each PC one chance - and just one(!)chance - to spot something at a specific location while walking by it. Multiple passings won't matter; once missed is the same as always missed.

Dr.Disaster wrote:Aye and it's pretty easy to do too. All it takes is the implementation of a classic pen and paper RPG feature that allows the game master to resemble anything subceptive. Basically it's a hidden percentage-based "luck" stat that grants each PC one chance - and just one(!)chance - to spot something at a specific location while walking by it. Multiple passings won't matter; once missed is the same as always missed.

Not a bad compromise.

*But it'd be nice if modders could set that base chance (to be adjusted by the PC's relevant stat or skill), or flag it as no chance.

We actually experimented with this a long time ago and felt that this type of auto-detection of secret features did not fit the game well. I always felt cheated when the game told me there was a hidden thing nearby. I think the core reason is this: while combats tests the abilities of both the player and his characters, the puzzles are strictly in the player's domain -- he is the one solving them, not the characters.

petri wrote:We actually experimented with this a long time ago and felt that this type of auto-detection of secret features did not fit the game well. I always felt cheated when the game told me there was a hidden thing nearby. I think the core reason is this: while combats tests the abilities of both the player and his characters, the puzzles are strictly in the player's domain -- he is the one solving them, not the characters.

I'd never expect it to reveal a hidden room to my characters. But a button on the wall might be nice. (And I don't mean the regular, metallic buttons that are clearly seen - but the ones that look like the stone).

Because what happens is I go down the hallway facing the wall (not really paying attention to what's in front of me), then back around the same hallway, this time facing the other wall, on the off chance there might be one of those wall buttons I missed.

A spot check would be cool, in this situation, so I am not crawling the same hallways twice, making my trek through the dungeon twice as long!