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Debate: Secret buttons

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:24 am
by NutJob
Well, this forum has died down significantly since a month a ago so how about some friendly crossfire on hidden buttons?

To start, I'm an Anti-fan of hidden buttons unless in extremely reasonable circumstances, and even then will not use a Secret Button. If it's part of a puzzle or progression [of any type] the notion to apply something "hidden" never arises. I always try to present dungeon progression as logical path, though with obfuscation, markers, story presentation, or visual representation.

With that said, I don't mind a module to have secret buttons either as long as it's a reoccurring mechanic that represents a facet of progression. So if I find one hidden button I expect to find another one some time down the adventuring path, as well. So basically, if I were to use secret buttons "I will want this to be a mechanic applicable to certain actions and events to keep concurrency."

While I very much enjoyed the campaign there was instance this occurred I thought the use of secret button was out of place. I don't remember the map name but the puzzle dealt with two movable push_blocks and the only way to solve it was to open a secret door and get behind it. Well, I could plainly see I needed to get on the other side of the wall but being I wasn't aware of "forest" type of secret buttons I was looking for much more complex ways of getting behind the wall instead of strafing around looking at every pixel of every texture.

My follow-up: all modules that have secret buttons "probably" should tell the user there will be secret buttons without getting into too many details. Modules that do not use secret buttons "always" should state up front there are no secret buttons (or at least in the case the secret buttons are never part of progression).


So, what do you onThink?

Re: Debate: Secret buttons

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 2:10 am
by minmay
I think secret buttons are a cumbersome mechanic that don't add anything to games except for artificial length. Secrets are great, but "secret" buttons (and similar mechanics) as used in games just make players slow to a crawl so that they can check every inch of every wall. (In addition to dungeon crawlers, see: Wolfenstein 3D, Descent, many roguelikes...) Secrets should reward players' cleverness, not players' brute force. The very first secret button you find feels like an accomplishment, every button you find after that just reminds you that your death is inching closer every second and you're spending your time staring at hundreds of identical walls in a video game.

(I understand and respect that Grimrock is a tribute to older dungeon crawlers and intentionally carries over many of the aspects that are considered bad design today, such as their food systems and restrictive controls; there's nothing wrong with that. Please don't derail NutJob's thread to point this out to me.)

Re: Debate: Secret buttons

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:35 am
by GoldenShadowGS
I love me some secret buttons. My map will have lots of them. I have to constrain myself however to only use them for actual secrets(secret rooms) and not puzzles. I will find myself using them for everything when I go back and play test and end up changing them to normal buttons except for the secret rooms.

Re: Debate: Secret buttons

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:40 am
by sps999
I feel like Secret Buttons can benefit a dungeon if used sparingly and correctly.

When playing through pretty much any dungeon there seems to be a motif that somebody set the dungeon up as some sort of trial. In Grimrock 1 there was a note Toorum left saying how the whole thing seemed like some sort of test and in Grimrock 2 the Island Master pretty much directly said the island was a trial. With this in mind, when making my own dungeon I've made the areas that are opened up with secret buttons appear as though they were not intended by the "dungeon masters" for any reason. In one instance a prisoner says he has nearly finished tunneling his way out of his cell. When the player obviously sees there is no tunnel in the cell they will likely take a closer look around the cell. When they find the secret button it feels like they are breaking into an unintended part of the dungeon, and I imagine it feels cool to break the bounds of the dungeon set by the "dungeon masters".

Of course, this falls into the same category NutJob made of leaving some sort of hint towards the button, and I agree that this is a good way to use secret buttons, but not all of the secret buttons in my dungeon are hinted towards through some sort of letter or clue. One of the motifs in my dungeon is also puzzles that are simple at first and solvable at a simple level, but go further and reward the player for taking the puzzle one or multiple, steps further.

My best example of this is a simple button that makes a daemon head shoot a blob at the player. The easy, and only necessary solution, is to simply move out of the way of the blob and let it hit the receptor to open a wooden door. The player can then immediately move onto the next puzzle, but an observant player will notice that as the wooden door opens, a secret door closes right behind it. Reactivating the receptor toggles the two doors. The smart player would then figure out that if they shoot the blob while the wooden door is open, then walk through the door while the blob is still traveling, they can then access the area behind the secret door. While not accessed by a secret button itself, this area behind the secret door goes into my aforementioned "unintended part of the dungeon," as accessing the area is relatively tricky compared to what is required to progress through the normal dungeon.

Because of this, when I needed to use a button in this secret part of the dungeon, I felt it would be most appropriate for a secret button, as a normal button makes it seem as though this part of the dungeon was intended to be stumbled upon by the "dungeon masters." When placing this button, I was sure to make it the only thing in the secret area to find. This way, the player knows there has to be something to look for behind the door, otherwise the secret the player had to cleverly get into would have nothing at all. Also, the total space this secret area covers is a single 5 tile long hallway, so there isn't too much area to look in. So while the button was not hinted towards with an in-game clue, I felt it was the most appropriate button for the region was a secret button and not a normal one.

tl;dr I use secret buttons in my dungeon for design purposes, that are probably so needlessly complicated that the average player would not even notice them. (But I still feel thinking too deeply into the design of the dungeon helps overall)

Re: Debate: Secret buttons

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:02 am
by GoldenShadowGS
I do a very similar design. Every area aside from the single tile "secret room" can be seen from another area. I've done wall grates separating a hallway and secret room, the actual door to get into the area is somewhere else. the player will see this area that Is inaccessible and have to search for the entrance in the other area. Beside the wall grate, I also have higher sections with no ladder and magic bridges that appear under your feet when you try to fall down to a lower area.

Re: Debate: Secret buttons

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:33 am
by Grimfan
I love secret buttons if used correctly. They have a place in the history and lore of dungeon crawling and while some players hate them others love the challenge they present. I use secret buttons (and secrets) sparingly and usually provide some visual or auditory clue to their existence (but not always). I also provide experience points for locating secrets, which gives the players something meaningful to look forward to. On the other hand, I generally never use secret buttons to stop a player's progression through a mod or to solve a puzzle.

I actually have a bigger problem with the overuse of puzzles than secret buttons, but that's a different kettle of fish.

As for the lull in the forums I think most of that can be put down to the asset pack not being available. I think there is only so much modders can do or discuss without it. Also, remember that people like Leki, Skuggs and Phitt are working behind the scenes creating new tilesets for release as part of their mods, while others are working on gui features or converting old assets. There is really only so much that can be said about the game at the moment.

Re: Debate: Secret buttons

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:07 am
by Spathi
Finding the entry button in eob was a highlight of my life, sad, I know.

here is a post I made today, then I saw this topic, rofl.
Grimrock would be healthier with a detect trap trait and a bottom caption popped up. "Toorum senses a something nearby"... like in Eye of the Beholder... at least I think it had something like that. A couple of log1 mods do that here and there and it works quite well. A trait doing it would feel more immersive as it is a character skill and a character chatting and not OCD searching every wall for buttons.
What everybody should do, including Almost Human (imho) is establish a standard, have an invisible trigger that says "Ben: I sense a disturbance in the force"... next to something you want someone to notice... especially when you have broken precedents set in the main game (like putting a button next to a light or behind a torch). Some precedents should not be broken.. like putting a button on a tree... like almost no one will look for this sort of thing. If you have to break a precedent then use a new asset.. like a special pedestal or a different looking table or something.

If you put a button on a lamp breaking a precedent, make it a big one, I missed one the other day and it wasted hours of my time... time is valuable.

That said buttons are my favorite thing (after treasure maps), it is just a pity that because they exist you have to search every wall.

Almost Human seem to have removed things like ripping tapestries, probably because too many people did not notice straight away. The mine buttons and switches can be seen from both sides, etc etc.

The small button behind a ripped tapestry or on vine walls, used in some log1 mods, took ages for me to notice. So if u going to do that, make the first one something that must be passed.. to escape a cell or whatever, so we know to look for them.

p.s. sometimes a mummy behind a wall, gives a good audio hint something is hidden.

Re: Debate: Secret buttons

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:35 am
by sps999
Spathi wrote:Finding the entry button in eob was a highlight of my life, sad, I know.
p.s. sometimes a mummy behind a wall, gives a good audio hint something is hidden.
Didn't even think of this one, but the enemy behind a wall has been a favorite of mine.

To a certain extent this brings up a piece of dungeon crawling that I have grown to dislike which is the use of teleporters. In my own dungeons have been careful to not make the entry to a secret area be a teleporter, and only teleport the player to previously visited areas (Shortcut to Surface) or in such a way that it is clear exactly where the player is teleported to, such as the the start of a puzzle involving teleporters or to the other side of a room from the entrance teleporter. I do this for a relatively basic reason, but I have found it impactful enough to annoy me. This reason is that I prefer to play Grimrock with Old School Mode on, and it really does not encourage me to map out an area if the area suddenly teleports me to an unknown location. I don't know where to draw the rest of the map, where or if it is going to link up with the rest of the map. Also, I don't want the entrance to a secret area that is hinted at, perhaps from enemies behind a wall or by grate walls, to be somewhere else entirely. This was not too much of a problem in Grimrock 1 and 2, but notable examples that pop up in my head are the Tomb (the only time I wanted to draw a map but I couldn't because there were teleporters all over, and in the Crystal MInes when there were
SpoilerShow
flame elementals behind a cave wall and the only way to reach them was to teleport from the other side of the map.
I'd rather have a nearby hidden button to open what the player suspects as a secret than a teleporter to get into there.

Re: Debate: Secret buttons

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:04 am
by Spathi
Teleporters always struck me as unnecessary, it is not very d&d.
I also get a little annoyed if I can hear something that won't be reached until I walk right round a dungeon, almost a bug imho. Looking through a gate is ok, but was annoying the first time I had to cope with having to wait for how to get there.

I would rather a map was linear all the way without long return walks, bit more like log1. i.e. Old school Wizard of Firetop Mountain type layout. The main game log2 gets away with it because it is a first run, but people should not emulate it. The odd circular river map is fun though.

Round Robin was ok because each room was well defined. Open loopy exploration does not work in mods because they become too large and u are just traveling across huge numbers of redundant squares. Cursed Legion (was fun at the start) had annoying unorganized pathway options (great idea, however, they needed to label pits and organize when u could go down them) and became awful because it also opens secret areas in old areas with re-spawns, which no one will look for without watching a video. To make things even more frustrating, they then close the areas again after the respawn area is left, so even if u watch the video afterwards, you can't go back to get the items.

To make it clearer, you had to find a button or area, kill all the creatures, leave the map for a while, walk though some trigger point on a map many maps away to trigger a respawn on the first map, then go back to the map and go to the spot where you found the secret (which was out of the way on that map in both instances i.e. not somewhere where you would walk again)... something like that. I didn't stand a hope of doing all that, rofl. I suppose the point of cursed legion was to follow the guide, but still, bit annoying.

Re: Debate: Secret buttons

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:40 am
by OGDA
When I'm done with my campaign, it will have extensive amounts of secret buttons of all kind, even in the main progress line.
Nearly all old dungeon crawlers used them in the main progress too (for exampl EOTB2) and if you didn't find them, the game would stop right there.

Of course you can ignore walls for the main part of the game, but then you have to live with a much less powerful party.
The size of the campaign is like the size of the orginal campaign (65% finished).
I don't think, that it makes something frustrating but more rewarding.

Kind regards,
Joerg