Completed game, some feedback

[remilafo]

Hello

I completed the game, it took my third party to find a combo that makes things easy.

But there is something i found along the way which kinda bothers me and thats tanking.

Even with a paladin rocking 100+ protection and evasion over 40+ and full immunity to all elements you still can't tank crabs, ogres or even two of the big wolves back to back. Is this intended?

I found it strange that there is a tanking class but in reality you will be reduced to side-step dodging to live. My third party was massively offensive and i killed most things in under 5 seconds. Offense is a good defense lol...

there are other balance issue i found as well but i want to keep this post regarding tanking. But incase someone wants to bring them up, humans suck, guns suck, missile weapon are really meh, wizards are nerfed battlemages, alchemist are probably the best class in the game, farmers are a great concept and really exploitable (ie. ratling farmers with cheese, can single character complete hardmode).. etc.

Prem

[msyblade]

I think, on the tanking thing, it is a matter of perception. The tank is intended to survive encounters, this does not mean you are able to completely stop trying to fight, and just stand there and take damage. You still need to use strategy and movement, otherwise the "tank" breaks the combat in the game. I think the confusion is attributed to games like Dragon Age or other hack and slash types (Diablo, Path of Exile, etc. . .) where strategy is not the second to second situational awareness that a tile based dungeon crawler relies on. Those games strategy are more easily described as "click. click. click. clickclickclickclickclickclickclick, Yay I survived!" That simply does not apply to tile based combat. If you dont bother moving out of the way, you are inevitably going to take too much damage, any other option would break the combat, making it "click....click....click....done!" This is just my opinion, and I hope it doesn't come across as rude or condescending, just thought I'd air out my perception of a tank in LoG's world.

Hope this helps!

[remilafo]

I think, on the tanking thing, it is a matter of perception. The tank is intended to survive encounters, this does not mean you are able to completely stop trying to fight, and just stand there and take damage. You still need to use strategy and movement, otherwise the "tank" breaks the combat in the game. I think the confusion is attributed to games like Dragon Age or other hack and slash types (Diablo, Path of Exile, etc. . .) where strategy is not the second to second situational awareness that a tile based dungeon crawler relies on. Those games strategy are more easily described as "click. click. click. clickclickclickclickclickclickclick, Yay I survived!" That simply does not apply to tile based combat. If you dont bother moving out of the way, you are inevitably going to take too much damage, any other option would break the combat, making it "click....click....click....done!" This is just my opinion, and I hope it doesn't come across as rude or condescending, just thought I'd air out my perception of a tank in LoG's world.

Hope this helps!

it's all good, i actually revisited my thoughts on tanking a few times after writing the original post.
My position wasn't ideal to begin with, originally my concept of a "tank" in grimrock was something like a knight with heavy weapons and shield (ie. 4 armor, 5 heavy, and some accuracy); which isn't a full tank to begin with but even that can pretty much laugh at most attackers in the game except the high dmg ones i mentioned in the original post.

I made a test party with a front line "FULL tank, knight" with 4 armor, 5 dodge and 5 athletics.. this character was level 12 which is very feasible in the normal game and gave him full plate armor not even the crystal or meteor set and a few health and/or evasion peripherals.

Insectoid race, with the natural armor trais (the +10 and +5 protection) went full vitality and dexterity. And double fisting shields.

My experiment showed that you can infact tank, crabs, ogres and even the Cannon rat boss without problems. Ofcourse this character cannot do any dmg at all but for those players that care little about 2x2 strafing, anything can be tanked.

With a real play through throwing in the meteor set or crystal set with tomes of health, alchemy etc. A knight with 150+ protection and 60+ evasion with 400+ hp is totally doable.

So in conclussion if a player truely did focus a character on pure tanking, ogres, crabs, rat boss even back to back are easy.

Prem

[Azel]

I think, on the tanking thing, it is a matter of perception. The tank is intended to survive encounters, this does not mean you are able to completely stop trying to fight, and just stand there and take damage.

Actually yeah, that's exactly what it means. A tank should be able to just stand there, stop trying to fight, and take damage. The DPS characters will kill the enemy while the tank(s) absorbs as much of 100% damage as possible. There is no perception about it, a tank tanks. Period. If we start trying to take some abstract philosophical approach then sure we can make some valid point about how a tank shouldn't really be able to tank, but that's digressing way too far. Plus, the simple fact is that Evade is quite broken in the current version of Grimrock 2. Players can actually run around with "negative" Evasion and still survive encounters just as easily as a "tank" with 50 Evade. There's a problem with that. Which is why everyone ends up realizing that you just need 4 Alchemists to bulldoze through the game (or in my case: 1 Mino Barb with Throwing, 2 Alchemists, and a Ratling Farmer).

Regardless of what we can say about the concept of "tanking" as an abstract idea, Grimrock itself definitely needs an update to make "tanking" even worth exploring. A good comparison is the first Grimrock game. Evasion was very powerful, so much that a Light Armor user with high Evade could "out-tank" a Heavy Armor user with high Protection. It's all about the software

[Dr.Disaster]

Plus, the simple fact is that Evade is quite broken in the current version of Grimrock 2. Players can actually run around with "negative" Evasion and still survive encounters just as easily as a "tank" with 50 Evade. There's a problem with that.

It would only be a problem if Evasion did not work but it does in fact work. There already have been tests done here that confirm Evasion is working. It's just not that OP anymore as it was in LoG 1 where you can run around with Evasion ratings of 70+ and be virtually untouchable by monsters.

Yet since LoG 2 Evasion is less effective than it was in LoG 1 it should be more/easier available then it is now i.e. Evasion trait should grant at least 10 Evasion from the start instead of 5 and each level of Dodge should grant at least 5 Evasion, not just 3. Right now top-end Evasion without massive use of Dex Potions is close to 60. My suggestions would up that to about 75.

[any6]

My characters are quite durable but I still can't facetank ad infinitum. I find that good.

Tanking is a sad concept for gaming imho. It basically reduces every encounter to a numbers game. Either you survive long enough to destroy the mob or you die. Most MMOs play that way and it's rather boring (especially when a dedicated healer is added).

Theoretically, you could finish Grimrock 2 on a lvl 1 character with perfect play. Adding defense to your party allows you to screw up, to make mistakes. It does not really allow for MMO-style tank and spank (unless you really know the game and start by building a party for this purpose)

The best stat in this game is the player herself. If you, as a gamer, learn the game and become better at using the tools at your disposal, you'll have an easy time. If you are lazy and expect rising numbers to eventually make you into a god, you will be a bit less effective.

This also reminds me of the "perception stat" suggestion that always pops up regarding secrets. Perception is a stat owned by the player, not by her characters.

[Azel]

Tanking is a sad concept for gaming imho. It basically reduces every encounter to a numbers game. Either you survive long enough to destroy the mob or you die.

Everything about an RPG, or even video games in general, is a numbers game. Offensive characters have DPS which is literally a numeric measurement (Damage Per Second), thus a numbers game. Building a video game literally involves translating math and logic in to 1's and 0's (machine language); more numbers game. So your statement is very odd considering the current environment. I mean, is there any character at all that can't be described as, "either you survive long enough to destroy the mob or you die" ??

The best stat in this game is the player herself. If you, as a gamer, learn the game and become better at using the tools at your disposal, you'll have an easy time. If you are lazy and expect rising numbers to eventually make you into a god, you will be a bit less effective.

Your premise is accurate (the best stat in the game is the player); but your follow up logic is completely false, especially in terms of how Grimrock 2 works. If you run a party of 2, 3, or even 4 Alchemists then you will get so many stat potions making your numbers rise and thus becoming "godlike" ... and you will be highly effective. The fact that you came to the exact opposite conclusion suggests that you probably didn't take your own advice, "learn the game."

It's true that you can beat Grimrock 2 with one character (I doubt though that you can leave the character Level 1 the entire time), but with that level of player skill imagine if you have 4 Alchemists with max stats? It would only increase your effectiveness within the game itself (which is controlled by the game mechanics of the software).

[Azel]

It would only be a problem if Evasion did not work but it does in fact work. There already have been tests done here that confirm Evasion is working. It's just not that OP anymore as it was in LoG 1 where you can run around with Evasion ratings of 70+ and be virtually untouchable by monsters.

Yet since LoG 2 Evasion is less effective than it was in LoG 1 it should be more/easier available then it is now i.e. Evasion trait should grant at least 10 Evasion from the start instead of 5 and each level of Dodge should grant at least 5 Evasion, not just 3. Right now top-end Evasion without massive use of Dex Potions is close to 60. My suggestions would up that to about 75.

Assuming those test numbers are valid (give or take a slight skew) then I certainly stand corrected. And yeah, I suppose Evade was a bit overpowered in G1. I have to admit I was quite sad to see my Light Armor Human out-tanking the heavy armor Minotaur. Requiring 75+ Evasion to be a true tank sounds about right in a 100-point system. If I were to think back to Dark Age of Camelot, my Savage was close to untouchable after 85+ Evade.

[any6]

Tanking is a sad concept for gaming imho. It basically reduces every encounter to a numbers game. Either you survive long enough to destroy the mob or you die.

Everything about an RPG, or even video games in general, is a numbers game. Offensive characters have DPS which is literally a numeric measurement (Damage Per Second), thus a numbers game. Building a video game literally involves translating math and logic in to 1's and 0's (machine language); more numbers game. So your statement is very odd considering the current environment. I mean, is there any character at all that can't be described as, "either you survive long enough to destroy the mob or you die" ??

I don't know if you're trolling or genuinely misunderstood my post.

Your stats in grimrock do not decide whether you'll survive any given encounter. As such, grimrock is not (merely) a numbers game. It is technically possible to reduce the game to a numbers game by elaborate planning but this is still the result of exquisite player skill rather than game mechanics. Without a great player, it is not possible to reach this result.

The best stat in this game is the player herself. If you, as a gamer, learn the game and become better at using the tools at your disposal, you'll have an easy time. If you are lazy and expect rising numbers to eventually make you into a god, you will be a bit less effective.

Your premise is accurate (the best stat in the game is the player); but your follow up logic is completely false, especially in terms of how Grimrock 2 works. If you run a party of 2, 3, or even 4 Alchemists then you will get so many stat potions making your numbers rise and thus becoming "godlike" ... and you will be highly effective. The fact that you came to the exact opposite conclusion suggests that you probably didn't take your own advice, "learn the game."

Again, you fail to understand my post. Furthermore you quotemined me because I specifically said that if you know the game, you can build your party to become godlike.

The fact that I came to the exact same conclusion and specifically said so, coupled with the fact that you found it necessary to remove that from the quotation, makes you either dishonest or bad at reading.

It's true that you can beat Grimrock 2 with one character (I doubt though that you can leave the character Level 1 the entire time), but with that level of player skill imagine if you have 4 Alchemists with max stats? It would only increase your effectiveness within the game itself (which is controlled by the game mechanics of the software).

Jup.

[Nexus]

My complaint of the way protection works is how some enemies seem ignore it. I like that when I get hit by an ogre it does 100 damage even with 100 protection, it makes fighting an ogre a daunting task and communicates the heft of the strike, same as the (stormbreach sewers spoiler)

SpoilerShow

ratling boss

. What I don't like is the zombie that hit me for 3x35 when I had 20 protection hit me for 3x30 when I have 100 protection. Is it insensible to think that being completely covered in steel would make you impervious to slaps and scratches?

With evasion, I feel it is balanced at 0~40 (maybe 0~30), but above that feels like the benifits are a bit 'meh'. But more than that big negative evasion needs to be punishing. It needs to do something more at -60 other than make every strike hit (which seems to happen at -10 anyway) like having an effect on your accuracy. My arguement for the -accuracy is that the -evasion seem to be supposed to communicate the clumsyness of an untrained heavy armor user, and thus significant clumsyness should be detrimental to your accuracy.

The heavy armor penalties should be reduced when you get light armor proficiency, like by a third. I like a third because it shows that you know how to equip it propperly (like light armor) but not how to move around in it. Now to balance it out increase the penalty to -15 evasion without any training, -10 at light armor training and -0 at heavy armor training.