Grimrock

Just finished the game. No spoilers, but it was awesome.

However, I did notice one thing once I got to the last couple of areas. It seems like wizards really fall off in the late game compared to the other classes. Meteor Storm, which I believe is the most powerful spell in the game, would hit enemies for about 100 damage, give or take. But my fighter with Bane and my knight with the Meteor Hammer would hit for more than that (120-140 or so) with just a normal attack, without critting or power attacking. Granted the spell does the damage at range, but there's usually only time to get one spell off before enemies close the distance with you.

It seems like wizards in this game are the exact opposite of what they are in most other games--they're great in the early and mid game, but not so good late game.

Maybe spells should scale with Willpower or something to help wizards keep up? Thoughts?

While late game, warrior classes can do the most dps, wizards still do decent damage at a range and they can't miss with their spells. I would never make a actual Wizard though, a alchemist with magic is a lot better, more health, and the energy difference is irrelevant due to the duping of herbs.

agreed. just like physical damage scales with strength or dex, magic damage should scale with willpower.

I think the reason they did NOT do this, is they figure magic does similar dps, since it never misses.

still, I see the same thing you do; magic is still useful late game, especially the utility and defense spells, but the raw damage tops out pretty much as soon as you can cast meteor (level 8-10), while your companions tend to continue gaining in power as they level, get more strength through levelling, potions, etc, and also can find ever better weapons that do more damage.

giving spells a willpower boost to power would not unbalance the game at all. an extra 5-10 damage per 10 willpower would be just about right to help keep pace.

hell, I'm even noticing that my alchemist's bombs often do more damage than high level spells like lightning bolt.

Ichthyic wrote:agreed. just like physical damage scales with strength or dex, magic damage should scale with willpower.

Interesting, I really haven't been paying too much attention to the little things like this since starting. I thought it would be more like LoG1 in that regard. My guess is the designers wanted wizards to do less damage than the front-line fighters in a party since they have the advantage of range, but in that regard, I feel like my spells don't always hit, so I'm under the impression spells are based off accuracy, is this correct? If so, then the should scale the same as throwing and missile weapons otherwise the balance for this class would be clearly lacking.

I see why you might think magic is under powered in comparison to the damage of a barb or something, but theirs something you left out. Mages can deal splash damage to all mobs in a square, especially meteor. Being able to one shot groups of mummies with 1 spell (meteor) is really strong, especially during a certain part of the game. No other class is really capable of dealing that kind of splash damage either, unless you throw bombs, which dont deal nearly as much damage. And mages damage scales with willpower, just in a different way from str and dex characters (can cast more spells and gain more mana regen).

Mages in grimrock arnt like they are in other game, in this game there more of the support role that deal with stuff the rest of the party cant as opposed to being the powerhouse one shotter. Being able to cast dispel, being able to buff the entire party with resists, have splash damage, being ranged, cast light, they can pick which element to use like fire vs ice mobs can deal a lot of extra damage.

If you think mages are so weak then try doing a playthough without them and you will understand why having a support in a group is really useful.

Didn't read everyone's post so sorry if I repeat something someone else said.

1st, mages can do AoE damage. Not only can they hit all 4 enemies in a square, but they can also hit multiple groups of enemies (with ice shards specifically). Because you can hit all 4 enemies in a tile, you will do WAY more damage than any other class could ever do. Meteor will single shot four mummies in a tile, no possible way to do that with a barbarian.
2nd, they control all the elements. If an enemy is weak to fire, use fire, if he is weak to lightning, use lightning. Speaking of weaknesses, they also get the spell dispel, which is the only thing that can hurt air elementals (except for one dagger in the game).
3rd, Some of their spells are very unique. Freeze and enemy, run behind it, and backstab it with your rogue for triple damage. Light spell, never have to carry torches. Sheild spell, if you're playing battlemage, you can become a godly tank. Also the cube spell is very good, if you are backed into a corner with two groups of enemies on either side of you, you can lock one group and focus on the other. Also you can cast cube at a wall, lock yourself from taking damage, heal up with potions or whatever, and then keep fighting when the spell runs out.
4th, perfect accuracy. They never miss.
5th, ranged.

Mystina Valeth wrote:Didn't read everyone's post so sorry if I repeat something someone else said.

1st, mages can do AoE damage. Not only can they hit all 4 enemies in a square, but they can also hit multiple groups of enemies (with ice shards specifically). Because you can hit all 4 enemies in a tile, you will do WAY more damage than any other class could ever do. Meteor will single shot four mummies in a tile, no possible way to do that with a barbarian.
2nd, they control all the elements. If an enemy is weak to fire, use fire, if he is weak to lightning, use lightning. Speaking of weaknesses, they also get the spell dispel, which is the only thing that can hurt air elementals (except for one dagger in the game).
3rd, Some of their spells are very unique. Freeze and enemy, run behind it, and backstab it with your rogue for triple damage. Light spell, never have to carry torches. Sheild spell, if you're playing battlemage, you can become a godly tank. Also the cube spell is very good, if you are backed into a corner with two groups of enemies on either side of you, you can lock one group and focus on the other. Also you can cast cube at a wall, lock yourself from taking damage, heal up with potions or whatever, and then keep fighting when the spell runs out.
4th, perfect accuracy. They never miss.
5th, ranged.

I think that sums it up nicely. So spells don't check for accuracy then? Good to know. I think what the OP mentioned was that when using throwing potions, they also multi-hit, but he's claiming for much more damage than the highest damaging spells. I haven't gotten to higher levels yet myself, so I really cannot say, but I can see how this could seem rather odd.

Mystina Valeth wrote:1st, mages can do AoE damage. Not only can they hit all 4 enemies in a square, but they can also hit multiple groups of enemies (with ice shards specifically). Because you can hit all 4 enemies in a tile, you will do WAY more damage than any other class could ever do. Meteor will single shot four mummies in a tile, no possible way to do that with a barbarian.

True. But by the late game, enemies that come 4 to a tile are so weak that it doesn't really matter that your wizard can one-shot them. Your front-liners will just chop them down in a couple of swings without taking any damage, most likely.

Mystina Valeth wrote:Didn't read everyone's post so sorry if I repeat something someone else said.

1st, mages can do AoE damage. Not only can they hit all 4 enemies in a square, but they can also hit multiple groups of enemies (with ice shards specifically). Because you can hit all 4 enemies in a tile, you will do WAY more damage than any other class could ever do. Meteor will single shot four mummies in a tile, no possible way to do that with a barbarian.
2nd, they control all the elements. If an enemy is weak to fire, use fire, if he is weak to lightning, use lightning. Speaking of weaknesses, they also get the spell dispel, which is the only thing that can hurt air elementals (except for one dagger in the game).
3rd, Some of their spells are very unique. Freeze and enemy, run behind it, and backstab it with your rogue for triple damage. Light spell, never have to carry torches. Sheild spell, if you're playing battlemage, you can become a godly tank. Also the cube spell is very good, if you are backed into a corner with two groups of enemies on either side of you, you can lock one group and focus on the other. Also you can cast cube at a wall, lock yourself from taking damage, heal up with potions or whatever, and then keep fighting when the spell runs out.
4th, perfect accuracy. They never miss.
5th, ranged.

At the price of mana, that is really easy to fall short of. You forgot that "little" detail.
In fact, the problem with magic is that it is not reliable. for exemple fireburst cost 25 mana and do often more damage than fireball witch cost 53 mana and need to invest point in air magic.
Every spell touch all the enemy in the square, neither to say that you can cast fireburst faster and more often than fireball.
The only difference is that fireball can be a ranged spell, no big deal there for a spell that cost more than twice that is little brother.
An other word to compare warriors and mage, once you have invest about 3 or 4 points to accuracy, you will almost never miss, but even if you invest 5 points in concentration, few meteors will suck your mana pool dry.

Crashone wrote:

Mystina Valeth wrote:Didn't read everyone's post so sorry if I repeat something someone else said.

1st, mages can do AoE damage. Not only can they hit all 4 enemies in a square, but they can also hit multiple groups of enemies (with ice shards specifically). Because you can hit all 4 enemies in a tile, you will do WAY more damage than any other class could ever do. Meteor will single shot four mummies in a tile, no possible way to do that with a barbarian.
2nd, they control all the elements. If an enemy is weak to fire, use fire, if he is weak to lightning, use lightning. Speaking of weaknesses, they also get the spell dispel, which is the only thing that can hurt air elementals (except for one dagger in the game).
3rd, Some of their spells are very unique. Freeze and enemy, run behind it, and backstab it with your rogue for triple damage. Light spell, never have to carry torches. Sheild spell, if you're playing battlemage, you can become a godly tank. Also the cube spell is very good, if you are backed into a corner with two groups of enemies on either side of you, you can lock one group and focus on the other. Also you can cast cube at a wall, lock yourself from taking damage, heal up with potions or whatever, and then keep fighting when the spell runs out.
4th, perfect accuracy. They never miss.
5th, ranged.

At the price of mana, that is really easy to fall short of. You forgot that "little" detail.
In fact, the problem with magic is that it is not reliable. for exemple fireburst cost 25 mana and do often more damage than fireball witch cost 53 mana and need to invest point in air magic.
Every spell touch all the enemy in the square, neither to say that you can cast fireburst faster and more often than fireball.
The only difference is that fireball can be a ranged spell, no big deal there for a spell that cost more than twice that is little brother.
An other word to compare warriors and mage, once you have invest about 3 or 4 points to accuracy, you will almost never miss, but even if you invest 5 points in concentration, few meteors will suck your mana pool dry.

Clearly you're doing something wrong if you're ever running out of mana. Throughout the entire game on both of my playthroughs (one on normal with a wizard and alchemist, and once on hard with a battlemage and no alchemist), I was successfully capable of keeping 20+ mana potions on my mage at all times, I can't even recall a single time I had mana problems once I got the mortar and pestle (which you get that really early on in the game).

Also yeah, once you invest 3-4 points of accuracy into a melee class they'll almost never miss, but that is 3-4 levels mage can spend on something else, like mastering another element. Or if you're playing battlemage, you could spend those 3-4 points getting athletics or armor leveled up. By the end of the game, my mage had 3 concentration, 5 fire, 5 air, 5 water, and 1 earth.