Grimrock

I try to make a party for hard.

So far:

Front:
Mino Barb tank(Since HP is better then prot and ev) and ???

Back:
Alchemist with missiles and Mage

1. What can I do to effectively negate the -acc from mino barbs? (points in dex or trait weapon specialist or skill points in acc?)
2. What other frontliner is good here? Maybe second barb with dual wield str weapons since the other gets a heavy weapon (but I dont care for a shield so what else could I give him when he can wield a two handed weapon in one hand?)

I think the Backline is solid. I hate Firearms and I think missiles would be much better and I want to have an Alchemist because I feel the need to have (kind of)unlimited supply of herbs.
The Mage is a no-brainer in cause of dmg (I think).

Or is there some secret I missing here? Some master tactic in terms of groupe composition. Please help me.

I went with
Minotaur barbarian and insectoid battlemage
Lizardman rogue and ratling alchemist (5 alch, 3 conc, 3 fire, 3 lightning)

My battlemage has been getting beat up for some reason, even with +10 armor, the shield spell, and giving him all the vitality and +hp stuff so he has more HP than my barbarian. I just gave in and got him to heavy armor, so maybe that'll help.

I sort of wish I'd taken another alchemist instead of the rogue. I'll have to run some numbers to see if the +15% dual wield is better than the bonus damage from more +stat potions, plus more of the other ingredients means I won't have to be as stingy with potions. I might use that for my ironman single use crystal mode.


You can't dual wield heavy weapons. I suppose you could dual wield light weapons using strength bonus, but that seems like it wouldn't be optimal when you already have someone needing strength (thus only one gets headhunter)

I put my barbarian's points in dex and went with aura to pick up extra energy. Then points in accuracy. I did consider doing the +7 accuracy trait and a point in concentration instead so I could buff the barbarian with a shield spell for tough fights, although I could've made shield potions instead.

I thought of two alchimists too but is its worthy to take away one wizard?
I know I cant dual wield Heavy weapons and that only one can take headhunter but I dont know what else. I hear that armor and ev does sh*t in comparison of HP.
I will stay with Alch and Wiz in my backline and I dont touch firearms.

But when I have one mino barb tank what other "thing" is tanky enough?

I'm using one of my alchemist as a wizard. You lose +2 willpower and 3 energy per level, but gain 3 hp per level and the ability to grow herbs. Very early on you won't be contributing much (no wand), but after that, I think the tradeoff is worth it. Just try to grab a crystal plant early so it has a chance to start duplicating. I think you can get two of them pretty easily by 3rd or 4th level if you head to the forgotten river and the cemetery right away.

The ~60 energy loss won't matter. You'll be able to make more than enough extra mana potions to top you off if you're running low, or you could use one alchemist's potions to increase just his willpower (or not, if you don't need it).

I do not think protection and evasion are that pointless.
The issue is that by end game or even some mid game the major damage is coming int he form of magick so high resists or high hp win.
Although I am tempted by the Mino with his hp I am going to go with lizardmen for the front line in my second playthrough which will be hard mode for their ability to begin with 50% resist all.

sapientCrow wrote:... I am going to go with lizardmen for the front line in my second playthrough which will be hard mode for their ability to begin with 50% resist all.

Ya Lizardman actually make fairly good tanks specially versus Magic, plus their already decent dex gives them decent accuracy right off the bat.

naturgewald wrote:1. What can I do to effectively negate the -acc from mino barbs? (points in dex or trait weapon specialist or skill points in acc?)

You can
- add 4+ points to dex; prefered since dex less than 10 does also reduce Evasion and Shock resistance
- select Agile trait (similar to adding 2 points into dex)
- select Weapon Specialist trait to buff Accuracy by 7
- select Accuracy skill to buff Accuracy by 10 per skill level

I advice you to aim for at least Accuracy 30.

naturgewald wrote:2. What other frontliner is good here? Maybe second barb with dual wield str weapons since the other gets a heavy weapon (but I dont care for a shield so what else could I give him when he can wield a two handed weapon in one hand?)

Anything specialized in melee works well. Either go for (very) fast dual wielding with light weapons or another heavy weapon guy. Keep in mind that you can NOT dual wield heavy weapons even with the skill maxed out; you have to go heavy weapon and shield.

A Battlemage might be worth a try when you keep his magic to utility spells or small melee range attack spells; yet i need to experiment a bit with him too. On Hard i definately advice against a front row melee rogue. The Rogue armor set or other light armor sets do not provide enough protection+evasion and heavy armor is in general too heavy for him.

naturgewald wrote:I think the Backline is solid. I hate Firearms and I think missiles would be much better and I want to have an Alchemist because I feel the need to have (kind of)unlimited supply of herbs. The Mage is a no-brainer in cause of dmg (I think).

Keep in mind that a throwing or missile using alchemist will need both the weapon skill and accuracy, otherwise he's miss a lot. Critical is a very welcome damage buff but on an alchemist you'll prolly run low on skill points. An alternate would be to teach your alchemist magic. Keep it to utiliy and one element and he's not far behind your mage regarding damage.

Awww. It's a bummer to hear that Battlemages aren't working out, even when HP'd out. I was just thinking last night about how insane it would be to have an Insectoid Battlemage for 45 protection pre-armor. I was kinda thinking about using that plus a Minotaur Knight (with Heavy Weapon/Shield) in another playthrough to have two of the best-armored characters in the game tanking.

naturgewald wrote: 1. What can I do to effectively negate the -acc from mino barbs? (points in dex or trait weapon specialist or skill points in acc?)

I used minobarb with with +7 acc in beginning and +acc stuff that I stumbled upon. It was enough +tohit. After maxing heavy weapons, I maxed accuracy to whole 5 points. Why? He was my main DPS and it was crucial for him to hit almost every time, more than anything else in my whole party. He had loads of HP from gear and elixirs, so he didn't die easily. My main defence strategy was overall to kill everything as fast as possible before they can do anything. Don't neglect armor or evasion completely though, they'll keep your guys safe just enough to survive through bad swarming situations.

naturgewald wrote: I think the Backline is solid. I hate Firearms and I think missiles would be much better and I want to have an Alchemist because I feel the need to have (kind of)unlimited supply of herbs.
The Mage is a no-brainer in cause of dmg (I think).

I cannot imagine how hard would it be to play the game through without the endless amount of potions, not to talk about bombs. People forget to use them, but to think - quite like free ranged spells that your whole party can throw! 4 flying orbs of death can get you through anything - freezing giant enemies, hitting 4-stacks all at once, or just dealing damage the enemies are vulnerable to. Overall, alchemist is just too good not to pick. Dunno what's the best role for him other than herbspawning, I used mine as a prot-tank.

Mages always hit their targets and usually from range, so they are very handy in some situations, especially in early game. Lategame, my mage mostly threw spells only when I was charging towards the enemy, didn't have time to cast spells while sidestepping.

Generally I think a party with lots of roles experting to many different situations will get you through the game. Two barbs in front row could be very effective, yet bit cheesy.

Thanks for all the input.

I think it will be:

Front:
2x Lizard Tanks Barbs for lots of hp and liz for 50 res and both max heavy so they can carry bombs

Back:
2x Alchis 1xMage (later support and early game damage) and 1x missiles (5 alch 5missiles + acc or crit)