Grimrock

All characters are level 1 humans with the exception of Rogue #6 (ratling level 1). Both weapons can be found in the first area of the game. All weapons were single wielded (1 hand empty), with the exception of the last two entries. No extra attributes, skills or traits were added with the exception of the ones mentioned below.

Branch (Strength) base damage: 1-4
Bone Club (Strength) base damage: 2-6

Rogue #1: 10 STR, 1 point in light weapons
Branch: 1-4 (Average 2,5)
Bone Club: 2-6 (Average 4)

Rogue #2: 10 STR, 1 point in light weapons, Agressive (+4 damage)
Branch: 3-8 (Average 5,5)
Bone Club: 4-10 (Average 7)

Rogue #3: 12 STR, 1 point in light weapons
Branch: 2-6 (Average 4)
Bone Club: 3-8 (Average 5,5)

Rogue #4 14 STR, 1 point in light weapons
Branch: 3-8 (Average 5,5)
Bone Club: 4-10 (7)

Rogue #5: 15 STR, 1 point in light weapons
Branch: 3-9 (Average 6)
Bone Club: 4-11 (Average 7,5)

Rogue #6: 6 STR, 1 point in light weapons
Branch: 1-1 (Average 1)
Bone Club: 1-2 (Average 1,5)

Knight, 1 point in light weapons, 10 STR, dual wielding
Branch: 1-4 (Average 2,5) & Bone Club: 2-6 (Average 4)

Rogue, 1 point in light weapons, 10 STR, dual wielding
Branch: 1-4 (Average 2,5) & Bone Club: 2-6 (Average 4)

#1 The tooltip for the weapons reads: damage X-Y + Attribute. It should be damage X-Y + Attribute bonus. Example: 1-4 + Strength bonus
#2 The agressive trait adds 4 damage to the highest damage number, but only 2 damage to the lowest damage number. This nets an average damage difference of +3 instead of +4.
The same happens to attribute bonus (Strength/Dexterity).
#3 The 25-40% dual wield penalty doesn't work.

Am I missing something here or is the damage system in fact wrong?

EDIT: I forgot to mention that the Bone Club is a heavy weapon, but it doesn't have a HW requirement, so I don't think it matters anyway for these calculations

The system takes 10 points in an attribute as the base line and adjusts from there. Also, minimum damage only gets half the bonus. So having 10 Str/dex means you are not modifying the damage. 20 Str/Dex would be +5-10 damage.

eduran wrote:The system takes 10 points in an attribute as the base line and adjusts from there. Also, minimum damage only gets half the bonus. So having 10 Str/dex means you are not modifying the damage. 20 Str/Dex would be +5-10 damage.

Ok, that is true for the Agressive trait as well. It adds +2-4 to your weapon damage instead of +4-4.

So, who is better at dual wielding? Let's check the barbarian (+1 str/level) vs the rogue (25% dual wield penalty instead of 40%).
Note: The sickle sword damage was taken from one of Dr.Disaster's posts, since I haven't reached mid-late game yet.

Level 10 Barbarian
Base STR: 14 (+4)
Final STR: 24 (+14)
Traits: Agressive (+4 damage)

Branch damage: 1-4
Branch with STR bonus (+7-14) and Agressive Bonus (+2-4): 10-22
Dual wield damage (40% penalty): (10-22)*0,6 = 6-13

Rapier damage: 4-13
Rapier with STR (+7-14) and Agressive Bonus (+2-4): 13-31
Dual wield damage (40% penalty): (13-31)*0,6 = 7-18

Sickle sword damage: 15-46
Sickle with STR (+7-14) and Agressive Bonus (+2-4): 24-64
Dual wield damage (40% penalty): (24-64)*0,6 = 14-38


Level 10 Rogue
Base STR: 14 (+4)
Final STR: 14 (+4)
Traits: Agressive (+4 damage)

Branch damage: 1-4
Branch with STR (+2-4) and Agressive Bonus (+2-4): 5-12
Dual Wield damage (25% penalty): (5-12)*0,75 = 3-9

Rapier damage: 4-13
Rapier with STR (+2-4) and Agressive Bonus (+2-4): 8-21
Dual Wield Damage (25% penalty): (8-21)*0,75 = 6-15

Sickle sword damage: 15-46
Sickle with STR (+2-4) and Agressive Bonus (+2-4): 19-54
Dual Wield Damage (25% penalty): (19-54)*0,75 = 14-40


It's clear that, disregarding criticals (specially because the rogue's passive only adds crits to missile/throwing weapons), the rogue starts with a lower damage output, but as the game progresses he becomes better at dealing DPS (minor difference while using one of the best weapons in the game). That being said, the barbarian has a higher vitality pool, which means that he makes a better frontliner while the rogue is better on the back-row with 2 points of accuracy.

The main issue here is that it seems that dual wield penalties don't seem to apply to str weapons (bug), so there is no point in using a dual-wield rogue if you are going to use strength weapons. Is this correct?

Fred1 wrote:The main issue here is that it seems that dual wield penalties don't seem to apply to str weapons (bug)

There is no such bug that we know of. The precision of computations was a little off so that weapons with small damage values (e.g. less than 20 points) had some rounding errors. This has been fixed with the latest beta. Remember that dual wielding penalties only apply to weapon's base damage, not attribute or other bonuses.

petri wrote:There is no such bug that we know of. The precision of computations was a little off so that weapons with small damage values (e.g. less than 20 points) had some rounding errors. This has been fixed with the latest beta. Remember that dual wielding penalties only apply to weapon's base damage, not attribute or other bonuses.

Calculations redone:

Level 10 barbarian
Branch dual wield damage (40% penalty): (1-4)*0,6 = (1-2) + (9-18) bonus = 10-20 total
Rapier dual wield damage (40% penalty): (4-13)*0,6 = (2-7) + (9-18) bonus = 11-25 total
Sickle dual wield damage (40% penalty): (15-46)*0,6 = (9-27) + (9-18) bonus = 18-45 total

Level 10 rogue
Branch dual wield damage (25% penalty): (1-4)*0,75 = (1-3) + (4-8) bonus = 5-11 total
Rapier dual wield damage (25% penalty): (4-13)*0,75 = (3-9) + (4-8) bonus = 7-17 total
Sickle dual wield damage (25% penalty): (15-46)*0,75 = (11-34) + (4-8) bonus = 15-42 total

Note: I rounded all damage values to the lowest number, because I don't know how the formula works. This means that 13*0,75=9,75 was written as 9 instead of 10.

If these calculations are correct, dual-wield rogues suck badly compared to dual-wield str barbarians.

EDIT:
#1 In order to fix this "problem", the rogue could have a +1% crit every 2 levels when wielding light weapons or something along these lines
#2 Can you tell me how to calculate the extra damage coming from the weapon skills? For example, 5 points in light weapons add 100% damage. Is that 100% bonus damage applied to the Attribute/Traits bonus or the base weapon damage?

Comparing branch and rapier stats at level 10 is pointless - you wouldn't be using those at level 10. You get the benefit of +10 strength, but not the downside of 15% more penalty to a better base number (weapon stats you'll have at that point). So just str vs str using a reasonable weapon, it's a three point difference. And that's looking at just the base attacks, which doesn't take into account the higher energy pool a rogue has, nor the rogue's missile crit bonus.

Also, you might want to use dex for a rogue anyway, since dex weapons might be comparable and have the bonus that you're getting accuracy increase. Missing with a 18-42 damage weapon = 0 damage...

Vardis wrote:Comparing branch and rapier stats at level 10 is pointless - you wouldn't be using those at level 10. You get the benefit of +10 strength, but not the downside of 15% more penalty to a better base number (weapon stats you'll have at that point). So just str vs str using a reasonable weapon, it's a three point difference. And that's looking at just the base attacks, which doesn't take into account the higher energy pool a rogue has, nor the rogue's missile crit bonus.

Also, you might want to use dex for a rogue anyway, since dex weapons might be comparable and have the bonus that you're getting accuracy increase. Missing with a 18-42 damage weapon = 0 damage...

Of course you won't use a branch or a rapier at level 10. The names of the weapons were added only for flavour, because what matters here are the base damage numbers. The idea was to see how the rogue compares to the barbarian from early to late game.
In my initial calculations, the rogue had a worse performance in the beginning, but ended up outshining the barbarian (with a very small damage difference). As petri pointed out, the weapon penalty only applies to the base weapon damage. So, after redoing the calculations, we can see that the rogue has a worse damage per swing in every point of the game compared to the barbarian.
In relation to special attacks, this might be one of the few advantages that the rogue has over the barbarian. Since they appear to be so powerful that some players are picking fighters as frontliners instead of anything else, it might help the rogue to deal with his poor raw damage per swing.
In relation to missile critical bonus: I don't think that this a fair comparison. You are making assumptions that the player is going to invest in both melee and ranged for his rogue. I see very few reasons to make him a well-rounded character instead of focusing on just one weapon style (example: missile weapons + accuracy + critical > light weapons + missile weapons + critical).
Also, from what I've seen, melee DEX weapons tend to have a naturally lower base damage compared to melee STR weapons.

So again, rogues are better in the back-row, barbarians in the front-row, and in my opinion there is no point in picking rogues for melee (make a fighter instead).

Fred1 wrote:

Vardis wrote:Comparing branch and rapier stats at level 10 is pointless - you wouldn't be using those at level 10. You get the benefit of +10 strength, but not the downside of 15% more penalty to a better base number (weapon stats you'll have at that point). So just str vs str using a reasonable weapon, it's a three point difference. And that's looking at just the base attacks, which doesn't take into account the higher energy pool a rogue has, nor the rogue's missile crit bonus.

Also, you might want to use dex for a rogue anyway, since dex weapons might be comparable and have the bonus that you're getting accuracy increase. Missing with a 18-42 damage weapon = 0 damage...

Of course you won't use a branch or a rapier at level 10. The names of the weapons were added only for flavour, because what matters here are the base damage numbers. The idea was to see how the rogue compares to the barbarian from early to late game.
In my initial calculations, the rogue had a worse performance in the beginning, but ended up outshining the barbarian (with a very small damage difference). As petri pointed out, the weapon penalty only applies to the base weapon damage. So, after redoing the calculations, we can see that the rogue has a worse damage per swing in every point of the game compared to the barbarian.
In relation to special attacks, this might be one of the few advantages that the rogue has over the barbarian. Since they appear to be so powerful that some players are picking fighters as frontliners instead of anything else, it might help the rogue to deal with his poor raw damage per swing.
In relation to missile critical bonus: I don't think that this a fair comparison. You are making assumptions that the player is going to invest in both melee and ranged for his rogue. I see very few reasons to make him a well-rounded character instead of focusing on just one weapon style (example: missile weapons + accuracy + critical > light weapons + missile weapons + critical).
Also, from what I've seen, melee DEX weapons tend to have a naturally lower base damage compared to melee STR weapons.

So again, rogues are better in the back-row, barbarians in the front-row, and in my opinion there is no point in picking rogues for melee (make a fighter instead).

Regardless of the names, what you use for the base damage is obviously important. Your 2nd to last post showed three totals each for a barbarian and rogue, and for two of the three, you're using weapons that suck at that level, meaning that you're not including much of a penalty for dual wielding (which benefits the barbarian), and you are including the strength bonus (which again benefits the barbarian).

A difference of 15-42 does not "suck badly" compared to 18-45 when you have more special attacks. That's a 9% difference with close to twice the energy. In practice, the percentage difference is even less if you will gain strength from other sources.

Fred1 wrote:All characters are level 1

Knight, 1 point in light weapons, 10 STR, dual wielding
Branch: 1-4 (Average 2,5) & Bone Club: 2-6 (Average 4)

Rogue, 1 point in light weapons, 10 STR, dual wielding
Branch: 1-4 (Average 2,5) & Bone Club: 2-6 (Average 4)

#3 The 25-40% dual wield penalty doesn't work.

Am I missing something here or is the damage system in fact wrong?

These two characters are not dual wielding. You need to have 3 points in Light Weapons before the dual wielding feature unlocks. Prior to that you can equip weapons in both hands but they don't count as dual wielded and the two hands to not receive separate cooldowns.

Vardis wrote:Regardless of the names, what you use for the base damage is obviously important. Your 2nd to last post showed three totals each for a barbarian and rogue, and for two of the three, you're using weapons that suck at that level, meaning that you're not including much of a penalty for dual wielding (which benefits the barbarian), and you are including the strength bonus (which again benefits the barbarian).

A difference of 15-42 does not "suck badly" compared to 18-45 when you have more special attacks. That's a 9% difference with close to twice the energy. In practice, the percentage difference is even less if you will gain strength from other sources.

Hm, that is a fair point. After seeing the 8-9% damage difference I agree that both classes have their own advantages and disadvantages as dual wielders.

Still, I'm not sure who makes the best frontliner DWer: A minotaur barbarian with Head Hunter & STR light weapons or a ratling/lizardman rogue with DEX light weapons. I'm almost sure that the barbarian can do just fine, but I have no idea of how well the rogue can handle it while depending on evasion and a lower HP pool (I'm talking about Hard difficulty).

Neutronium Dragon wrote:These two characters are not dual wielding. You need to have 3 points in Light Weapons before the dual wielding feature unlocks. Prior to that you can equip weapons in both hands but they don't count as dual wielded and the two hands to not receive separate cooldowns.

You are right. That being said, the damage calculations are still "semi ok". They are not totally correct because I don't know if the damage from weapon skills are added to the base weapon damage or the bonus damage, so I left them out.