about LoG 2 intended secondary attacks (see AH blog too)

[Dr.Disaster]

Seems things are really going strong for LoG 2, good to get some news about it in the AH blog. The idea of adding secondary attacks is very nice, yet i foresee a problem with it's current execution requiring to hold down the attack button. With the current mechanic the player is forced to wait until the wanted secondary action was executed, halting all other mouse-actions for the entire party.

It would be better to just "kick in" the secondary attack with either Shift-Click or even a different mouse button (should be definable in options), so the character holding the weapon to use for that secondary attack will perform this action by itself including(!) any required pre- and post-cooldowns. This character can't do anything else while he is busy with the secondary attack until completion but all other characters would be able to do something i.e. melee/ranged/spell/own secondary attack/inventory management/whatever.

[antti]

When I've been testing the secondary attacks, I actually like that there's a very clear practical tradeoff (as opposed to a tradeoff that is just based on statistics) in using those. It also introduces deeper tactics for more skilled players who can take advantage of short moments in the middle of combat that they would otherwise spend waiting, like for example when all the other characters are on cooldown or when you're waiting for a monster to move in closer to you.

[Komag]

I have to side with AH on this one - as I read the blog I was intrigued with the idea of having to hold for a secondary attack while still perhaps moving or dodging or taking an extra hit or two in the mean time

[Dr.Disaster]

I have to side with AH on this one - as I read the blog I was intrigued with the idea of having to hold for a secondary attack while still perhaps moving or dodging or taking an extra hit or two in the mean time

If the party would be only 1 character i'd be fine with it as is. Yet the party consists of 4 and while 1 of them tries/does something special the others are forced to stand by in awe and say "Hey look at that!"? Doesn't sound right to me.

Well i'm maybe just a bit picky here since we have nothing to testdrive or watch yet, no idea how long those hold times will be and such. It for sure will require very precise coding so only one action happens, not that we see i.e. rogues starting a quick stab to end up throwing their dagger away. For players who tend to have a habbit of "slower"/"longer" clicks this could result in unwanted secondary attacks done. My point is: when is it only a click and when/where does the hold start, so the game knows which action to execute? Currently i know only games who repeat the same action when holding the mouse button down but none doing a different one. Perhaps that's my problem ..

[Greco]

Well, I had to agree with Dr.Disaster. The way you plan to implement special attacks will ruin gameplay, because, you simply cannot attack with other party members while you "charge" the special attack. Yet Grimrock is a party-based rpg, or is it not? The thing here is that "charging" a special attack to one party member disables actions of the whole rest party completely.
I think you should device another way to implement this feature (for example by increasing cool down time for special attack), because "charging" attacks are good for games like street fighter or Mortal combat, or for a single person action rpg, but surely does not fit to a party based rpg.

[Neikun]

I'm a bit on the fence. I think I would have to give it a test drive to know for certain how I would like it.
But I think Disaster's idea for some sort of shift+/ctrl+click could be an option explored. Even if not for attacking, maybe it could be used for defensive stance or stealth or what ever you can come up with.
A case of making sure you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater in this one, I think.

[FlashSoul]

Will the cooldown on a secondary action (like the 20 seconds on the Meteor hammer) only affect the secondary action or the main action as well?

[petri]

We understand your concerns. Changing something so deeply connected to combat mechanics is scary. However a couple of points:

1. Buildup times are only a few seconds.

2. There is visual feedback while the buildup is in progress. The builup can be cancelled by simple releasing the mouse button if you change your mind. This should also prevent accidentally throwing away your dagger.

3. Have some faith in us, we won't release anything that we feel is broken

It is very important that we get feedback about the game. We hope to be able to post about other game changing mechanics too for you to comment on.

@FlashSoul: the 20s cooldown for Meteor Hammer is just a regular cooldown value (not buildup). It's just something we toyed around with, it's not at all balanced and should not be interpreted how the final version will be.

EDIT: to answer your quesion more clearly: yes, cooldown affects all subsequent actions, no matter if it's primary or secondary action that put you into cooldown.

[FlashSoul]

@FlashSoul: the 20s cooldown for Meteor Hammer is just a regular cooldown value (not buildup). It's just something we toyed around with, it's not at all balanced and should not be interpreted how the final version will be.

EDIT: to answer your quesion more clearly: yes, cooldown affects all subsequent actions, no matter if it's primary or secondary action that put you into cooldown.

Thanks.

I'll trust you to balance things out correctly and make an awesome game again .

[JohnWordsworth]

It's hard to know exactly how both options would play out, but my gut instinct is that a charge time is the preferable option. In the case where the secondary attack is a different type (throwing a knife) I think this option suffers a little - but the charge time could be so small that it would be fine (like 0.5 seconds). Where a weapon has a 'better' secondary attack, I think having the choice of taking a couple of seconds to wind up an attack actually means that the secondary attacks can be more powerful and cool (because you can't just spam it all the time). In games like Dungeon Master, where you unlock better attacks - you rarely ever go back to using the weaker attacks. Implementing the mechanic this way would mean there is a trade-off to be made, which adds an additional element of thought and decision making to combat. Another benefit of click and hold is that it would allow you to port the game to the iPad and keep the same controls.

I like the idea that some secondary attacks require a specific level of skill to use. It makes sense that while any 'normal adventurer' would at least have enough general skill to be able to pickup a longsword and swing it around, they would need a bit of experience in sword play to do a technical attack and ignore the opponent's armour.

Idea: How about the option to have multiple special attacks with different charge levels for a few really advanced items? I'm thinking for instance that a lightning blade could have a standard swing attack, a 2 second charge attack to attack with lightning arcing over the blade using 1 charge and a 5 second charge attack that fires a lightning bolt spending 2 charges. A bit over the top perhaps, but it would be very cool :p