Grimrock

I shouldn't be getting THIS frustrated at a game.
I want to like this game! I want to LOVE this game!
BUT For the umpteenth time am I looking up hotkeys for AutoHotKey.
I'm looking up ways to speed up my gameplay, or slow down the creatures?

I run two fighters and two mages and at half way through this game I've realized just how much of a waste of time it has been. There is NO point to taking any weapons! There is NO point to taking any magic (there are no heal spells, and only one fire creature throughout the whole game!).


Oh screw this game.
Bad design, that's what I call it.
Even Eye of the Beholder had a bloody hotkey to attack with and you guys implement a nice complicated spell system, then leave out a bloody hotkey.
Bad design. That's all it is.
It's bad design and this game can screw right off.

I'll be making a hate video later to help myself feel better, but in the interim I want to note a few things:

#1 It's a badly written engine. Lighting chugs, video cards overheat and keyboards are sluggish. Ahh but but but but but; shut up. I don't want to hear it. I read the threads, I've read the counter arguments from the fan bois. The game has its technical flaws, don't bother.

#2 Most of the timing puzzles are stupid and overly complicated. Not fun. It's funny who may think these things are fun but they are not. They are just frustrating, and unnecessary.

#3 THERE IS NO POINT TO WEAPONS. The design in this game is so bad that the best way to progress is to take unarmed, only unarmed, and remain unarmed. The weapon balance is a joke, and the weapon dispersion is a bad joke.

#4 Don't bother taking rogues unless you're going all unarmed, in which case take two in the back. However, there are no traps to disarm, and nothing will ever need picking. There is in fact no point to the rogue class.

#5 THERE ARE NO HOTKEYS FOR ATTACKING OR SPELLCASTING. NONE. Not even one! But don't worry. Some fanboi will quickly swoop in to tell us all about a third party application that somewhat makes up for the developers complete delinquency and apathy in this regard. No decent scripts for spellcasting though, which brings me to :

#6 The spell system requires an infernal amount of clicking. In furious combat situations this can get stressful, which at first I thought was cool for adding to the mood, unless you're responsible for four separate characters, in real time. In this case, it goes beyond challenge to downright irritating.
"Oh but that's the challenge" ....You're an idiot.
That's not challenge. That's bad design.
The challenge should be coming from the GAME. Not the interface of my Nokia Spellcasting PDA.

Here let me reiterate in case anybody is not understanding that. Just read the following out loud to yourself:
THE CHALLENGE SHOULD COME FROM THE GAME.
NOT THE INTERFACE.
THE INTERFACE SHOULD NOT BE IMPEDING MY ABILITY TO PLAY THE GAME.
THE CHALLENGE SHOULD COME FROM THE GAME.
THE INTERFACE LACKS HOTKEYS.
THE INTERFACE IS THE CHALLENGE.


Developers, please note the following:
STOP UPDATING STUFF THAT PEOPLE HAVEN'T ASKED FOR, AND START ADDRESSING THINGS THAT PISS PLAYERS OFF.
The challenge should come from the game. Not how feverishly I have to click to cast/fizzle a spell.
The challenge should come from the game. Not how horribly limited the weapons skills are.
The challenge should come from the game. Not the lack of ease in performing tasks.

Every RPG since Ultima Underworld has had a quick bar for those healing potions, energy potions, or other bits that I may want fast access to. Yours does not. I consider this an absolutely out to lunch design decision.

Whatever.

Now quickly! Delete my forum post. Make sure not to let anybody see how absolutely angry your game has made someone!
Gosh and golly. Quick! What are you waiting for?


Game are meant to be fun and there are a LOT of posts on this forum from people who want to play this game, but can't because the designers were insensitive. Now they're successful and about to pump MOTS onto the market?

Smarten up your design please. Update the game with those bits that will make it more playable. That will ensure the game remains fun, while it's ramping the challenge.

Challenge in gameplay is fun. Challenge in interface is dumb.

Geez, are these the only threads we get in general game discussion anymore? Come on guys: There are angry threads already around to post on!!
I have no problem with your opinion, but really getting a few with complaint threads is one thing. Getting the same complaint again and again is boring. It must feel sooo tempting for the admins to make a sticky "Post rune/attack system complaints here" thread.

I'm sorry you're so angry!

I don't think the mods will delete your post, we're pretty good for hearing out opinions.

No one's saying the game isn't without flaws. We do ask that you take the engine flaws with a grain of salt.
They were a team of four on a very tight schedule.

I felt that weapon balance was quite satisfactory, myself. Nothing really greatly out powers anything else.
Swords do catch a bit of preference because most people opt for a sword in a fantasy game.

I do wonder why you suggest everyone should be unarmed though.

I had no trouble adapting to the spell system. The only thing that ever snagged me was remembering the rune combos after being away from the game for a bit. But I carried every spell scroll I ever found just in case.

If you're asking for a complete interface rehaul for a published game, might I use your own words against you and say:
You're an idiot.

The most you can hope for is to offer constructive criticism to the developers so their next project might be better suited to their audience.

I agree very much about quick slots for potions/use once items. I found it very hard to open up a character sheet and use a potion that might not even be in the right character's inventory and use it while dying.

I've noticed a slew of angry comments on this game... a year after it was released, and just after AH announces their development for a new project.
Seems suspicious, but I can't prove my intuition, so I'll just say this to the Devs:
Don't lose confidence, guys. You know you did a good job, but you also know you can do better. Don't be discouraged, you know you have a loyal fanbase!

The game went on sale. Lots of people bought it.
It's a good game. Then suddenly a lot of challenges start ramping and the interface starts really getting in the way.
And that is frustrating!

I am absolutely an idiot for letting this game get the better of me.

I'm not asking for an overhaul. That's a ridiculous and tired argument people keep throwing around!
Would you all stop saying that it would be an OVERHAUL just to add some simple interface elements!
My god, what do you people think a game is made of? There's a thread asking for hotkeys in the editor but to add hotkeys to the bloody game is an overhaul!???

I know what would be involved and it certainly isn't a bloody overhaul!

Here's a funny story: Syndicate (the horrifying remake from lo yesteryear) had a crappy FOV. Many people on PC cried for a fix. The company said they wouldn't address it because it would take an engine rewrite, lots of resources counted on static variables controlling the FOV, etc etc etc blah blah blah. For months people begged, to no avail.
Then one day some guy wrote a quick patch program to change a few bytes. Suddenly.. new FOV.

At the end of the day I say this:
If the company is spending time on a project that they want to sell as well as this game, then they're going to want to appease the mean, not the fans. The regular folks. Like me, who don't have an infinitum amount of time to frustrate myself trying to play like the folks who "don't have problems."

Clearly if there are a lot of posts, then maybe, just maybe, there's something to consider before rushing off to build more of the same.
Take the time to listen to the community about the bloody issues they're having!

Make the game less click intensive, streamline the shaders and engine to allow more people to play at higher resolutions, or on older hardware; and without burning those older video cards.

These things are not an engine overhaul, they are real crowd pleasers though, and if you've sold well, securing your company's future (as your press release claims) then take that time to ensure that success continues.

Money goes quick, so keep the game selling by pleasing people with that polish that ensures the fun for everyone.

If you're spending the time and man power making new stuff, take that time to ensure the old is good. If your community is raising concerns about gameplay, maybe you need to change something that a lot of people mention.

If the community is running a third party application and then complaining about that third party application on your games forums, HEADS UP! There's a major issue with your games design.

My OP was NOT without constructive aspect! It is a rage post, fine, but it provides solution suggestions as well.
To which you have rebutted, stating you would like to see some of those same features.

Yes I am aware that there are some constructive points to your posts. I would ask for you to calm down a little bit so that your points don't get muddled up with emotion.

As for hardware, I know this issue came up before, where people were playing this game with systems well below the minimum specifications.
System intensity wise, Grimrock is pretty smooth sailing. Lighting can cause lag, but I hear they've done substantial work in fixing it for their next project.
Official statement was that the updated lighting system can't be backported without serious work, and debugging/testing time.

To be honest I was rather impressed that AH added a low quality mode for people who were having hardware problems with the game.

They haven't divulged many thoughts on the clickiness of their game. I feel that this might be because a good portion of their fanbase enjoys it, while another portion hate it, and another portion want to build upon it.
I would think that they're doing lots of drafting for a more effective gui.

If there's one thing I can tell you about these devs, it's that they are extremely dedicated to their community. So while you might feel like many issues are simply being ignored, I highly doubt that. These guys are going through the forums all the time searching for feedback. They might not always make a response or a promise, but you can be sure you were heard. I am certain they have a good plan. While it is important to support released products, as a team of four, they needed to start developing the next game for a reason you have stated. "Money goes fast." It's not like they are dropping support for LoG, but it is definitely a wise move to get to work on the next project.

I'd like to take a moment and point out that I had no trouble with the difficulty of this game, and have seen seen just as many "This game is too easy because you just need to find a 2x2 room", as I have seen "I'm angry because I cannot click on the screen like i want to!".I like to think its a perfect balance somewhere in the middle.

tantoedge wrote:BUT For the umpteenth time am I looking up hotkeys for AutoHotKey.

Head to AutoHotKey forum and copy/paste the config they got there.
If you don't like those create them yourself.

tantoedge wrote:Even Eye of the Beholder had a bloody hotkey to attack with ..

Yeah and they were dead slow to use and very crude to handle.
The only reason they were there: back in those days not every PC user had a mouse.
Since then times have changed.

I won't address all of your points. I agree with a few to some extent but my concern is mainly that I don't want you to have another heart attack by reading my post.

tantoedge wrote: #1 It's a badly written engine. Lighting chugs, video cards overheat and keyboards are sluggish. Ahh but but but but but; shut up. I don't want to hear it. I read the threads, I've read the counter arguments from the fan bois. The game has its technical flaws, don't bother.

With the very last update, the one that's still in beta, my craptop is able to play at a decent framerate. You should try it. You should also realize that bad hardware isn't meant to play recent games. Hell, I couldn't run Crysis if I wanted and it's 7 years old. I have a very bad framerate on Doom 3 which is 9 years old. I don't expect 2012 3D games to run well on my bad hardware. Think about that.

tantoedge wrote: #3 THERE IS NO POINT TO WEAPONS. The design in this game is so bad that the best way to progress is to take unarmed, only unarmed, and remain unarmed. The weapon balance is a joke, and the weapon dispersion is a bad joke.

No idea what you mean there. Seriously. There's pretty much always a weapon of each type available that's roughly equal to others. You must have missed a lot of them if you had trouble with that.

tantoedge wrote: #4 Don't bother taking rogues unless you're going all unarmed, in which case take two in the back. However, there are no traps to disarm, and nothing will ever need picking. There is in fact no point to the rogue class.

Rogues are freaking powerful. Once again I'm really at a loss for words. I even think that the party considered the strongest is one that would be composed of 4 rogues. What did you mean by that?

Thanks for the feedback.

The interface is a big part of the game design, and the rune based magic system is deliberately designed to make casting spells challenging in the heat of battle. To counter the increased challenge, high level spells do some significant area of effect damage.

Changing the spell system to use hotkeys would be equivalent to mapping one button to perform a combo attack in Tekken without chance of misclicks (some people would probably like this change, but it is certainly not what the designers of Tekken had in mind), or to exaggerate a little, like replacing the buttons in a Guitar Hero guitar with a single button.

You're right, that Grimrock would be a very different game if it was designed for the masses. Lack of hotkeys for spell casting, tile based movement, challenging puzzles, brutal monsters, lack of an onscreen map are just a few examples.

Why not make a macro that will run through the whole dungeon from start to finish and kill everything in it's way, only need to press M1 for once