Doc's Suggestions

[DrMadolite]

I would like to make a serious case for my suggestions below, that the devs may think hard about them. I'm not taking credit, as these ideas and opinions are too common. But I would like to argue for these things, because I think they can seriously affect the future popularity of Legend of Grimrock. So here goes:

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Tilesets:

Cave tileset is a given. Caves are so widely used in RPGs and I was surprised to not see caves in LoG. The game is great nonetheless, but a cave tileset is often seen as a benchmark feature for a solid RPG. A cave also fits perfectly with the "start with no gear" paradigm - e.g. the start of TES2 Daggerfall or similar starting plots - and it allows for a much wider range of plot ideas to make sense.

Open Sky tileset, whether forest, ruins or otherwise. This is another nail, IMO. Imagine how modders can create plots that now include an outside area. I think it's pretty important. If I had to choose between ruins and forest, I'd pick forest because it's more widely used in RPGs compared to ruins. EoB2, Lands of Lore, NWN (Bioware) and most other RPGs use forests as a major plot device. I wouldn't mind ruins though, like the ruins of Myth Drannor in EoB3.

Here's some ideas for forest wallset functionality:

* Tree walls
* Vines and branches work like buttons
* Fenced gates (to mimic doors and portculles)
* Bush destructibles (like barrels)
* Water puddle (similar entity as floor dirt)
* Bear trap (new logic item that damages party or monster activating it)
* Bird's nest (works like eye socket)
* Wooden alcove

Not to mention tons of additional stuff that Almost Human could design to really make the new feature stand out, such as all-new monsters (giant insects, humanoids, Treants, wolves and more).


Weapons and Armor:

+X ability, i.e. Platemail +1 or Longsword +2. This is a well used mechanic that RPG makers use to create weapon variety without having to design unique models and names. I'm sure that such a feature can easily be added in the Dungeon Editor. For instance, each +1 would give weapons +1 attack or armor +1 protection. The bonus could range between 1 and 10, like in D&D games.


More gear:

Short sword - great for an early game swordfighter. I felt that the Machete was slightly OP to hand out for level 1 swordsmen, and a dagger/knife alone lacks variety.
Armorset of Anu - Lurker and Valor armor sets are nice uniques for rogues and warriors, respectively. But what about mages? Behold Anu and his hat, armor, gloves and boots. They'd give +resistances amd minor evasion as well as some energy consumption bonuses.

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So, why not just mod these things myself? The reason is because some features deserve to be presented to the general audience, not just the people who download mods. Whether it's my suggestions or some other things, these are features who are so definitive of a genre that they can affect the overall playability, and therefore the popularity, of a given title.

So am I right or wrong? What would you suggest to the devs, if you had to choose 1 thing?

Discuss.

[Sol_HSA]

Just going to say, if it was up to me, using "Discuss." would cause automatic locking of a thread.. =)

[Komag]

But I actually think those are good suggestions, good ideas

[DrMadolite]

Just going to say, if it was up to me, using "Discuss." would cause automatic locking of a thread.. =)

I think I get your point lol. But anyways, I just think it's a pity that there's no separate suggestion forum here. In either case, the devs probably know this by now and hopefully we'll see some nice treats in the near future, since they're done with the Dungeon Editor and all.

Cheers.

[Soorg]

Solid series of suggestions but I don't like the idea of generic magical weapons. It's the first step to trivialization of magic items.

About outdoor area, some for diversity would be cool that is sure. But dungeons had special features hard to reproduce in outdoor:

• Dungeons stack levels this allows pits and falling into a next level, outdoor don't have this feature only teleporting would allow this with the inconvenient to be quite more abstract and dungens can also use teleports additionally to pits.
• Dungeons allows much more subtle links between levels when outdoor has only borders to link to another level. Again teleports can be used in outdoor but it's quite more abstract and they can also be used in dungeons.
• Stuff build by human allow quite more possibilities to build puzzles because in structures build by human, switch, plates, buttons, moving walls, moving platforms, and amny other stuff allow build various puzzles when doing the same in outdoor is a lot more difficult.
• Dungeons allow elevators, it's not used by LoG but that can make quite tricky levels design and progression design. It allows for example to skip a level that could be reach only from a level lower through an elevator and once you have succeed reach the hidden level you could access to new area in levels up or down already explored but only partially. The concrete and physical links between the levels allow a setup of such complex design quite more different than abstract teleporting trying mimic that with outdoor areas.

Still some outdoor levels would be cool that's clear. But also dungeons could use different setup. For example:

• OP suggest caves but that open a wide panel of possibilities matching dungeons and more diversity. For example use water area, include some garden stuff in underground, have some special stuff like mushroom or luminescent water or more special stuff bringing diversity.
• The dungeon design can match plenty different approach. For example in LoG there's a part with grates used as wall but allowing see through them. You could setup a ruins level mixing solid walls and walls with holes allowing see through them in part, and more.
• Underwater stuff could work. Perhaps the current engine couldn't and the point isn't to make it realistic but make it concrete enough to design tricky puzzles or progression or even challenges. Under water everything would tend be a bit blue, breathing time would be limited, possibly some devices would allow breathe some time under water. A level could even be totally under water with some sas allowing move further down without he the water fill lower levels.
• And there's many more possibilities still matching a dungeons approach with all the advantages.

[DrMadolite]

Dungeons stack levels this allows pits and falling into a next level, outdoor don't have this feature (...)

The idea is to choose some outside wallset for the top level and "Dungeon" or other interior wallset for the levels below it, e.g. a forest with a hole in the ground or a staircase hidden in some thickets that'll take you to the dungeon level below.

[montagneyaya]

You can create it, in the modding forum you will find different tools and tutorials for creation (Model Tool Grimrock, Modeling for Grimrock), MOD or lua script for custom object (Armory weapons, make magical melee weapons), and you can use MOD or wait until the WIP are finite (Tilset mine, Forest Tileset).

This is why the editor dungeon and modding forum is, for the community to share their creations and customized possibilities.

[Merethif]

(...)
Armorset of Anu - Lurker and Valor armor sets are nice uniques for rogues and warriors, respectively. But what about mages?

I don't want to be nitpicky but how Lurker set is unique to rogues (other then by its ninja theme)? Since Evasion seems to be equal, if not better then protection, it's useful for every fighter. Stat-wise it's probably more efficient to have a fighter with maxed Swords/Axes/Maces/Unarmed and Lurker set, then waste points on Armour in order to equip heavy armours. The only point of investing points in armour is the fact that there are no two Lurker sets in original LoG otherwise Lurker is a way to go for any Fighter.

Also note that Lurker set is almost useless for a second row rogues, which is a place where most people keeps their rogues. For example Circlet of War is a better headgear for an archer or thrower then Lurker Hood. As much as it may looks cool to throw a shuriken wearing a Lurker set, it's more sensible to throw a shuriken wearing a Loincloth and Circlet of War.

Plus I always considered Chitin set as a mage unique (Fun fact: a mage needs to sink 14 points in non-offensive skill to wear Chitin set, whereas a fighter needs to sink 16 points in non-offensive skill to wear Valor set).

Long story short:
Stat-wise: it's all relative. Thanks to the fact that LoG doesn't have class restriction on outfits, you can really mix&match it all to your unique party build.
Theme-wise: Valor = fighter, Lurker = rogue, Chitin = mage


That said I'm not against Armourset of Anu. It sounds like a very good idea (even though with its resistance bonus and evasion bonus and energy consumption bonuses I'll definitely gonna give it to my unarmed fighter )

[Soorg]

Dungeons stack levels this allows pits and falling into a next level, outdoor don't have this feature (...)

The idea is to choose some outside wallset for the top level and "Dungeon" or other interior wallset for the levels below it, e.g. a forest with a hole in the ground or a staircase hidden in some thickets that'll take you to the dungeon level below.

Lol sure they are possibilities for secrets and links with non outdoor levels bellow and more even some puzzle stuff. It perhaps need be used with spare. I started replay Lands of Lore 1 and Eye of the Beholder 1. In LoL1 first area, only the first dungeon has good puzzles, the castle at this beginning have no puzzle well I suppose, the books room could be find in a dungeon, same for shops. And the forest area is quite empty, few hidden stuff and few locations. But dungeons can have locations it's just not much used. In EoB 1 it starts right into a dungeon and puzzles and tricks.

Remove the locations (dungeons could have some too) and LoL outdoor and castle area are tedious in comparison of EoB1 first level and LoL1 first dungeon. I do understand that beside some (awful) streamlining through the simplistic class system, short party, remove of survival elements or at least no food system and no inventory management, but beside LoL1 drag the genre to another dimension by building a story, using multiple NPC, adding area at another level with outdoor. Ok but on a pure core gameplay point of view it lost a lot when compared to Dungeon Master, I'm not sure I wouldn't prefer EOB1 if it had an automap system or at least an in game mapping. LoL1 is still very cool stuff but it's the approach of classical RPG just using some square movement system.

Just my opinion but it's not where it would be the best to lead LoG, it needs continue shine where modern games fail, exploration of an area, puzzles and tricky progressions, secrets, exploiting dungeons and all gameplay advantages they involve, an action fight system with a lot of potential, survival elements like with food management and inventory management, and some more.

[DrMadolite]

I've updated the OP.