Grimrock

First things first: THX very much for such a terrific game!

IMO it is very close to all-time-classic Dungeon Master while even expanding it in several game-related feature, i.e. the auto-pickup of the last used ammo per character.

Now to my suggestion. By playing thru the game several times with several different setups it came to my attention that mages perform rather poor during combat. Not in terms of damage of course but in terms of casting speed. To be more precisely: the speed the player is able to get the mage into casting a spell.

Let me explain this by an example. The classic party setup is 2 fighters, 1 ranged rogue, 1 mage. To fight monsters a player needs to do:
- 1 right-click on fighter 1's weapon hand
- 1 right-click on fighter 2's weapon hand
- 1 right-click on rogue's weapon hand
- 1 right-click on mage's weapon hand, followed by 1 to 3 clicks onto rune buttons plus 1 final left-click to launch the spell

-> 3 clicks to launch 3 attacks plus another 3 to 5 clicks for 1(!) more attack.

Now one may argue that in a party having only 1 mage this is not a great concern. I can stand that, no problem, but with a party featuring 2, 3 or even 4 mages this is an issue. Playing a 4 mage party ain't harder because they can't take a lot of damage. It's harder because the numbers of clicks needed to do combat vs. fast and/or multiple monsters!

Thus my suggestion is instead of de-selecting all runes after launching a spell keep the runes of a >successfully casted< spell selected. This would reduce the number of clicks needed to repeatedly cast a combat spell to 2 instead of 3-5.

that seems like a fair enough compromise!

Dr.Disaster wrote:Thus my suggestion is instead of de-selecting all runes after launching a spell keep the runes of a >successfully casted< spell selected. This would reduce the number of clicks needed to repeatedly cast a combat spell to 2 instead of 3-5.

It would work ONLY if you're casting the same spells over and over. I know that there is limited number of spells for each skill, but as a player who finished the game with party of four mages I often were swapping spells during single encounter (especially between Ice Shards / Frostbolts on my Ice Mage and between Shock / Lightning Bolt on my Air Mage).

As it is now my ice mage attacks looked like this:
Round 1, I decide to freeze monster with Frostbolt: 1 right-click on mage's weapon hand, followed by 2 clicks onto rune buttons to cast Frostbolt plus 1 final left-click to launch the spell (4 clicks)
Round 2, As monster is freezed and the second one appeared behind it I decide to use Ice Shards to hit them both: 1 right-click on mage's weapon hand, followed by 2 clicks onto rune buttons to cast Ice Shards plus 1 final left-click to launch the spell (4 clicks)
Round 3, Monster seems tougher then I supposed, I decide to cast another Frostbolt to finish him off faster: 1 right-click on mage's weapon hand, followed by 2 clicks onto rune buttons to cast Frostbolt plus 1 final left-click to launch the spell (4 clicks)
Round 4, I'm running low on mana but monster probably is almost dead anyway so there's no point in another Frostbolt - Ice Shard will probably be enough: 1 right-click on mage's weapon hand, 2 clicks onto rune buttons to cast Ice Shards plus 1 final left-click to launch the spell (4 clicks)...

The same encounter, if your suggestion were implemented, would look like this:
Round 1, I decide to freeze monster with Frostbolt: 1 right-click on mage's weapon hand, followed by 2 clicks onto rune buttons to cast Frostbolt plus 1 final left-click to launch the spell (4 clicks)
Round 2, As monster is freezed and the second one appeared behind it so I decide to use Ice Shards to hit them both: 1 right-click on mage's weapon hand, followed by 2 clicks onto rune buttons to un-cast Frostbolt plus 2 clicks onto rune buttons to cast Ice Shards plus 1 final left-click to launch the spell (6 clicks)
Round 3, Monster seems tougher then I supposed, I decide to cast another Frostbolt to finish him off faster: 1 right-click on mage's weapon hand, followed by 2 clicks onto rune buttons to un-cast Ice shards plus 2 clicks onto rune buttons to cast Frostbolt plus 1 final left-click to launch the spell (6 clicks)
Round 4, I'm running low on mana and monster probably is almost dead so there's no point in another Frostbolt - Ice Shard will probably be enough: 1 right-click on mage's weapon hand, followed by 2 clicks onto rune buttons to un-cast Frostbolt plus 2 clicks onto rune buttons to cast Ice Shards plus 1 final left-click to launch the spell (6 clicks)...

at this point you probably see that your solution is not ideal.

Merethif wrote:

Dr.Disaster wrote:Thus my suggestion is instead of de-selecting all runes after launching a spell keep the runes of a >successfully casted< spell selected. This would reduce the number of clicks needed to repeatedly cast a combat spell to 2 instead of 3-5.

It would work ONLY if you're casting the same spells over and over. I know that there is limited number of spells for each skill, but as a player who finished the game with party of four mages I often were swapping spells during single encounter (especially between Ice Shards / Frostbolts on my Ice Mage and between Shock / Lightning Bolt on my Air Mage).

As it is now my ice mage attacks looked like this:
Round 1, I decide to freeze monster with Frostbolt: 1 right-click on mage's weapon hand, followed by 2 clicks onto rune buttons to cast Frostbolt plus 1 final left-click to launch the spell (4 clicks)
Round 2, As monster is freezed and the second one appeared behind it I decide to use Ice Shards to hit them both: 1 right-click on mage's weapon hand, followed by 2 clicks onto rune buttons to cast Ice Shards plus 1 final left-click to launch the spell (4 clicks)
Round 3, Monster seems tougher then I supposed, I decide to cast another Frostbolt to finish him off faster: 1 right-click on mage's weapon hand, followed by 2 clicks onto rune buttons to cast Frostbolt plus 1 final left-click to launch the spell (4 clicks)
Round 4, I'm running low on mana but monster probably is almost dead anyway so there's no point in another Frostbolt - Ice Shard will probably be enough: 1 right-click on mage's weapon hand, 2 clicks onto rune buttons to cast Ice Shards plus 1 final left-click to launch the spell (4 clicks)...

The same encounter, if your suggestion were implemented, would look like this:
Round 1, I decide to freeze monster with Frostbolt: 1 right-click on mage's weapon hand, followed by 2 clicks onto rune buttons to cast Frostbolt plus 1 final left-click to launch the spell (4 clicks)
Round 2, As monster is freezed and the second one appeared behind it so I decide to use Ice Shards to hit them both: 1 right-click on mage's weapon hand, followed by 2 clicks onto rune buttons to un-cast Frostbolt plus 2 clicks onto rune buttons to cast Ice Shards plus 1 final left-click to launch the spell (6 clicks)
Round 3, Monster seems tougher then I supposed, I decide to cast another Frostbolt to finish him off faster: 1 right-click on mage's weapon hand, followed by 2 clicks onto rune buttons to un-cast Ice shards plus 2 clicks onto rune buttons to cast Frostbolt plus 1 final left-click to launch the spell (6 clicks)
Round 4, I'm running low on mana and monster probably is almost dead so there's no point in another Frostbolt - Ice Shard will probably be enough: 1 right-click on mage's weapon hand, followed by 2 clicks onto rune buttons to un-cast Frostbolt plus 2 clicks onto rune buttons to cast Ice Shards plus 1 final left-click to launch the spell (6 clicks)...

at this point you probably see that your solution is not ideal.

You miss a few things:

- Any mage would have a spell preset once he did successfully cast one and in a dungeon crawler one really hardly walks around without being prepared to fight.
- Your numbers are wrong. By my suggestion switching between Frostbolt/Ice Shards would be only 2 clicks, not 4, and switching between Shock and Lightning Bolt is just 1 click.
- You wasted energy.

Let me show this by your example:

Round 1: Frostbolt. 1 right-click for caster interface, 2 clicks for it's runes, 1 click to launch.
-> 4 clicks, no difference to usual routine

Round 2: Ice Shards. 1 right-click for caster interface, 2 clicks to switch off lower-left rune and activate upper-right rune, 1 click to launch.
-> different to usual routine but same click count of 4

Round 3: Frostbolt again. 1 right-click for caster interface, 2 clicks to switch off upper-right rune and activate lower-left rune again, 1 click to launch.
-> different to usual routine but same click count of 4

Round 4: Ice Shards again. 1 right-click for caster interface, 2 clicks to switch off lower-left rune and activate upper-right rune again, 1 click to launch.
-> different to usual routine but same click count of 4

Total number of clicks: 16. That's the same as right now.

BUT you made 3 unnecessary spell switches AND btw wasted energy. Why/how?

Frostbolt costs 29 Mana to cast and deals way more damage then Ice Shards which costs 24 mana. Your mage used up 29 + 24 + 29 + 24 =106 energy. But 3 Frostbolts for 87 energy would have done the monster in too! AND you clicked a lot more times than needed.

Beside: a mage with only about 100 energy must be fairly low on lvl. All my mages in my 4 mage hard mode party hit that much energy at lvl 4 and none of them had any +energy gear or traits. Also at that point my Ice mage still had 2 lvl-ups to go to get Frostbolt and when he hit it he had 115 energy.

*sigh....* Here is a suggestion... If Playing a run of mostly mages is too hard and complicated for you, then why play it? and if you choose to play it anyways, you don't have the right to complain! I too have done a test run of 4 mages, 2 Ice, 1 Fire, and 1 Air, and even on Hard, it was easier than playing with a balanced party on Normal! Mainly cause when I played on Normal I was still new to the game and didn't know how to side step and abuse the enemies, but still.

Anyways: You can cue up attacks before battle, you know how the area is around you and can easily move around the enemies, there is almost always a place where you can force the enemies to fight you one on one and can abuse poor AI tactics. Also, the biggest thing, when magic hits the enemy it ALWAYS hits, it can't 'miss' like fighter's and rogue's attacks can. There is nothing to improve, except your skills. The game system is fine as is.

Jirodyne wrote:*sigh....* Here is a suggestion... If Playing a run of mostly mages is too hard and complicated for you, then why play it? and if you choose to play it anyways, you don't have the right to complain! I too have done a test run of 4 mages, 2 Ice, 1 Fire, and 1 Air, and even on Hard, it was easier than playing with a balanced party on Normal! Mainly cause when I played on Normal I was still new to the game and didn't know how to side step and abuse the enemies, but still.

Anyways: You can cue up attacks before battle, you know how the area is around you and can easily move around the enemies, there is almost always a place where you can force the enemies to fight you one on one and can abuse poor AI tactics. Also, the biggest thing, when magic hits the enemy it ALWAYS hits, it can't 'miss' like fighter's and rogue's attacks can. There is nothing to improve, except your skills. The game system is fine as is.

Mages are by far the most useless class in the game and the reason is the spell casting system. I'm old enough to have played Dungeon Master myself when it came out and I love it, but only because a game from 1987 has a certain game mechanic doesn't mean you have to use the same mechanic in a game from 2012, not even in a nostalgia game like Grimrock.

Sure, you can defeat enemies easily in Grimrock in most cases by sidestepping, time doesn't matter in that case. But one problem (the AI/combat system) doesn't negate another problem. And in stressful situations when multiple enemies attack you in a small space and you have to fight them toe to toe mages are simply too slow to be useful. You waste precious time trying to click the runes and the 'cast spell' button while other party members may already be able to attack again.

If you want a 'hard mode' - there is already one and you can always restrict yourself in any way you like additionally. But mages are one of the three classes in the game and if it's no option to pick a mage if you are looking for the best possible party members then it is not fine as it is.

Imo it should be similar to the mapping function where you can choose whether you want automapping disabled (like in most of the 80s/90s dungeon crawlers) or enabled (which is actually a good feature almost all modern games have nowadays - for a reason). Let the player choose whether he wants the 'old school system' with runes for the sake of nostalgia or simply a spell he can put in his hand(s) like it would work in modern games - convenient and good for gameplay. Or at least do what the OP suggested.

Jirodyne wrote:*sigh....* Here is a suggestion... If Playing a run of mostly mages is too hard and complicated for you, then why play it? and if you choose to play it anyways, you don't have the right to complain! I too have done a test run of 4 mages, 2 Ice, 1 Fire, and 1 Air, and even on Hard, it was easier than playing with a balanced party on Normal! Mainly cause when I played on Normal I was still new to the game and didn't know how to side step and abuse the enemies, but still.

If for some strange reason you got the impression i was complaining about playing mages being "hard" you need to re-read my post.

I have no problem with any kind of "hard" play. Actually i would like to see game difficulty being ramped upward, regarding monster speed/life/damage. Even a new hardcore option like disabling character revival entirely at life crystals is welcome. As long as the controls work great you can throw anything at me and right now caster controls are not as good as they could be.

Jirodyne wrote:Anyways: You can cue up attacks before battle, you know how the area is around you and can easily move around the enemies, there is almost always a place where you can force the enemies to fight you one on one and can abuse poor AI tactics. Also, the biggest thing, when magic hits the enemy it ALWAYS hits, it can't 'miss' like fighter's and rogue's attacks can. There is nothing to improve, except your skills. The game system is fine as is.

Was i talking about the game system? No.

I'm talking about controls and currently there is room for improvements, especialy regarding the casters. Just grab old Dungeon Master and compare it's caster interface with LoG's. You'll notice casting spells in DM is done faster then in LoG although the number of clicks needed is at least the same if not higher because the interface is a 1x6 grid instead of a 3x3.

EDIT
About "cue up attacks": Aye i can walk around with open caster interfaces and cued up FrostBolt + PoisonBolt + LightningBolt + Fireball on my 4 mage party, no problem. Few monsters can survive the quick release of these 4 spells, especialy when they are buffed by high enough skill-level and power boosting weapons like Shaman Staff or Zhandul's Orb. All fine as long as they come alone. But when they bring friends to party with clicking for more spells gets frantic.

Just for a quick suggestion.

Maybe holding a scroll in one hand and casting with the other will always cast the spall on the scroll? that way you can easily either take it off to cast another or swap scrolls?

This would mean that you can't use multiple magic weapons to boost magic power. But it will be A LOT quicker to cast spells. Given you own the required scroll.

Be nice guys.

Daniel.

DoomFire wrote:Just for a quick suggestion.

Maybe holding a scroll in one hand and casting with the other will always cast the spall on the scroll? that way you can easily either take it off to cast another or swap scrolls?

This would mean that you can't use multiple magic weapons to boost magic power. But it will be A LOT quicker to cast spells. Given you own the required scroll.

Casting a spell right off these findable spell scrolls when right-clicking them would be indeed the fastest way to cast! The trade-off' would be that the hand holding the scroll could do nothing else beside casting that spell i.e. no caster interface access.

That's a very interesting thought. Not exaclty what i imagined, but it would be a nice enhancement to item usage in general.