Grimrock

I loved this game. I couldn't put it down once I started. Here are some of my thoughts on the game design decision whether they were deliberate or not.

The Good

• There are several switches/buttons that can all function the same, but they appear different. Sometimes multiple switches are used in the same puzzle. The different appearance helps to differentiate function within the puzzle.
• I like that the game doesn’t have a vendor or any bennefit to hoarding items. If an item is unnecessary you can drop it.
• Magic isn’t just told to you. you have to find a scroll that tells you the correct rune pattern or you can guess it without the scroll if you have a high enough skill. I like this for a few reasons. It gives more loot to casters who seem to benefit the least from gear in these types of games and it gives you a chance to experiment and solve things with your knowledge of the rune elements.
• The game finds interesting ways of ambushing you. It goes from ‘ooh shiny loot’ to ‘OH $#!’ quickly. But when it happens walls are raising or you hear noises down the hall and it gives you a few seconds to see what is going to happen and formulate a plan first. Which is also important so that it doesn’t feel gimmicky.
• The way the story is told fits the gameplay and the setting.

I Would Change

• Up to a certain point, everything on a level can be acquired before you move to the next level. Then they torture you by changing that. It would have been better if they had given a visual clue such as visible stairs coming from a lower level to show the pattern break. Subsequent puzzles could do this without hinting, as the pattern break would have been established.
• They could have done a better job balancing how much you would level in a normal play through. There are many cool abilities that most people wont see especially since the replay value isn’t very high.
• The fact that strength modifies ranged damage and that ranged attacks cant miss should have been communicated up front. Many people built range characters with high dexterity to boost their damage, only to find out it had no affect.

choc wrote: [*]Up to a certain point, everything on a level can be acquired before you move to the next level. Then they torture you by changing that. It would have been better if they had given a visual clue such as visible stairs coming from a lower level to show the pattern break. Subsequent puzzles could do this without hinting, as the pattern break would have been established.

Care to elaborate? I don't know what you mean.

choc wrote: [*]They could have done a better job balancing how much you would level in a normal play through. There are many cool abilities that most people wont see especially since the replay value isn’t very high.

I think it's designed as it is to prevent characters become overpowered. Either you invest in Armour or Swords - if character could master both paths he would become somewhat overpowered IMO. Now player can "sub-class" each character to make it either Tank or DPS - for example Rogue can "sub-class" into Monk (tank) or Archer (DPS). The only change I would make is to change name "SKILL" into "PATH" or "SUB-CLASS".

choc wrote: [*]The fact that strength modifies ranged damage and that ranged attacks cant miss should have been communicated up front. Many people built range characters with high dexterity to boost their damage, only to find out it had no affect.[/list]

Yea, as much as I enjoyed all those Minotaur Axe Throwers and Minotaur Sharpshooters in my parties it really feels awkward. Especially that there is misleading gear seemingly made for archers, like flarefeather cap or pointy shoes, that doesn't improve missile weapons efficiency. Not to mention that Missile Weapon path increase Dexterity, which suggest it is important for archer, but actually is pretty useless in case of missile weapons.

Good points all.

Merethif wrote:

choc wrote: [*]Up to a certain point, everything on a level can be acquired before you move to the next level. Then they torture you by changing that. It would have been better if they had given a visual clue such as visible stairs coming from a lower level to show the pattern break. Subsequent puzzles could do this without hinting, as the pattern break would have been established.

Care to elaborate? I don't know what you mean.

Merethif wrote:

choc wrote: [*]They could have done a better job balancing how much you would level in a normal play through. There are many cool abilities that most people wont see especially since the replay value isn’t very high.

I think it's designed as it is to prevent characters become overpowered. Either you invest in Armour or Swords - if character could master both paths he would become somewhat overpowered IMO. Now player can "sub-class" each character to make it either Tank or DPS - for example Rogue can "sub-class" into Monk (tank) or Archer (DPS). The only change I would make is to change name "SKILL" into "PATH" or "SUB-CLASS".

Key word here being balance. They have control of all the numbers. Nothing has to be locked the way it is now. They could have kept the same balance by modifying enemies or damage scaling while making players level faster or modifying how many points are required to unlock skills.

Not true on the get everything on a level. Did you not fall in any pits if you did you were on a different level, you just couldn't see the loot thru a grate.
That's why it was a secret. On that particular example you gave I never gave it a second thought, looked at the map, knew there wasn't a pit drop to it or button press in the room you can see from, which made me THINK betcha get it later maybe from next level.

Brodie301 wrote:Not true on the get everything on a level. Did you not fall in any pits if you did you were on a different level, you just couldn't see the loot thru a grate.

Valid point. I should have worded it differently. Falling through pits had been taught at that point, but you could not get to that room through a pit. That is where the pattern break is.

On that point - I can't say I'm all that pleased about being 'rewarded' for falling into pits. It's sorta like rewarding poor play.

Flashheart wrote:On that point - I can't say I'm all that pleased about being 'rewarded' for falling into pits. It's sorta like rewarding poor play.

Another very good point. This annoyed me a little too. Not that it can't be rewarded on occasion but it was so prevalent that I ended up dropping into every pit I saw just to make sure there wasn't a goody bag down there. And usually there was.

Rewarding you for jumping down pits was also pretty immersion-breaking: if everyone (except you) dies down here, why are there teleporters that take you out of every pitfall and back to safety? You're telling me that every single other prisoner died at the hands of the monsters? Or starving to death in a corner while hiding from monsters? And never by falling into a pit trap and dying as a consequence of that? Seems a bit unlikely.

Other immersion-breakers:

The next time you start a new game, check the ceiling in the entry room. There's no holes in the ceiling of the starting room - so how did you get to be in the starting room after being kicked into the "THIS IS SPARTA!!!!!!" pit? It's doubly bizarre when you realize that every OTHER pit in the game has an associated hole in the ceiling, and there are even "ceiling chimneys" that let in that Strange Blue Light in certain parts of the dungeon (Floor 6 by the Iron Door and the secret entrance to the Vault, for example.) Those "ceiling chimneys" don't even have pits associated with them - they're really just a glorified light source. And yet, the giant pit you're kicked into doesn't have an in-game representation.

Lastly, . No such trap exists anywhere in the dungeon (for You, that is) and it was apparently a one-shot deal, because you can loot without fear of being trapped yourself. It's very strange.

Marak wrote:The next time you start a new game, check the ceiling in the entry room. There's no holes in the ceiling of the starting room - so how did you get to be in the starting room after being kicked into the "THIS IS SPARTA!!!!!!" pit? It's doubly bizarre when you realize that every OTHER pit in the game has an associated hole in the ceiling, and there are even "ceiling chimneys" that let in that Strange Blue Light in certain parts of the dungeon (Floor 6 by the Iron Door and the secret entrance to the Vault, for example.) Those "ceiling chimneys" don't even have pits associated with them - they're really just a glorified light source. And yet, the giant pit you're kicked into doesn't have an in-game representation.

Blimey! I never thought of checking the cieling at the start...

Marak wrote:Lastly,

SpoilerShow

the trap that killed Toorum

. No such trap exists anywhere in the dungeon (for You, that is) and it was apparently a one-shot deal, because you can loot

SpoilerShow

Toorum's Bones and all his gear

without fear of being trapped yourself. It's very strange.

Not neccesarily so strange. The tentackle faces know how to operate doors, and it could have been one of them about, turning a small room into a prison.