Grimrock

... athough I really wanted to support the developers for creating a new game for a long abandoned genre.

It's simple: the GUI is a huge step back from Eye of the Beholder!

1. Mouse requirement. Why does LoG require a mouse? This genre does not mandate it. EotB was best played from the keyboard with two hands: one hand on the numeric keypad, navigating/dodging, the other on the WASZ+SPACE keys. Most players wouldn't know about these last ones, because they were only available if the player didn't have a mouse (or disabled it). Their function was to jump between the hands of the characters. Using both weapons of the fighter characters were only a mere 3 keypress, and a split second, no eye movement required at all. Playing LoG the player (or at least I) spend more time looking at weapon icons (while painstakingly jerking the mouse around to hit them) than the actual monster! Wanna see what the enemy is doing? Have fun positioning the mouse blindly. This alone is a dealbreaker.

(An example of another game that is unwinnable with the mouse: Populous. And for the same reason: the mouse is a horrible input device when you have to navigate a simple diagonal matrix, even an isometrically displayed one. The keyboard is perfectly suited for this task, analogue peripherals (mouse, joystick) aren't!)

2. Also, EotB had the 'M' key mapped to manipulating doors, objects, and... yes, hidden switches. And it was still a worthy quest to 'M' all the walls of a dungeon, but not cripplingly so with a mouse. (imagine if Wolfenstein 3D required a mouse to open secret walls.)

3. Casting. Seriously. Why. After 2 levels I recognized how utterly annoying+unusable the mages are in this game, if I wanted to even try to stay in control of the fighting. And why buy a fantasy game whose botched interface mandates trashing all spellcasters? Using runes made no sense. Why not require a Kinect and have the player do some handwaving? A game (especially in this genre!) shouldn't do needlessly stupid things like this. This is not Minesweeper... Just display a list (and have it navigable by keyboard).

4. If all the above falls on deaf ears: at least add an "All Attack" on-screen button which was a new feature in EotB3, precisely because players were needlessly annoyed of the badly designed mouse-controlled GUI that LoG has faithfully reproduced...

Bonus: have your sysadmin check the registration confirmation mails... A lot of systems will see them as spam, and either flag it or delete it:

1.0 DCC_SPAM_FUZ2 DCC check fuz2 many
3.2 FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D Helo is d-d-d-d
3.4 RCVD_ILLEGAL_IP Received: contains illegal IP address

Did this apply to the Amiga 500 verison? Because I don't remember any of this from EotB.

Gabucino wrote:2. Also, EotB had the 'M' key mapped to manipulating doors, objects, and... yes, hidden switches. And it was still a worthy quest to 'M' all the walls of a dungeon, but not cripplingly so with a mouse. (imagine if Wolfenstein 3D required a mouse to open secret walls.)

I agree that keyboard support, in general, would be very welcome. However, I highly disagree with this one. A "use" key that could tag secret buttons would result in exactly what you did in those old games: strafing a wall tapping the key. You're no longer actually looking for a secret button- you're just mechanically doing busy work. The current implementation requires the player to observe the details of the dungeon, which is what one would expect from a puzzle-based game.

Your opinions on game design are terrible.

t0tem wrote:Did this apply to the Amiga 500 verison? Because I don't remember any of this from EotB.

It did not. Amiga games were overwhelmingly missing keyboard support, even if it existed in the PC version.

That's why I wouldn't replay EotB1 on the Amiga, however much I'd like to see the Amiga-specific endsequence...

stepsongrapes wrote:I agree that keyboard support, in general, would be very welcome. However, I highly disagree with this one. A "use" key that could tag secret buttons would result in exactly what you did in those old games: strafing a wall tapping the key.

You are right, I should have noted that it's just a minor personal quirk. I'd naturally buy the game if the other points were addressed.

Gabucino wrote:... athough I really wanted to support the developers for creating a new game for a long abandoned genre.

It's simple: the GUI is a huge step back from Eye of the Beholder!

1. Mouse requirement. Why does LoG require a mouse? This genre does not mandate it. EotB was best played from the keyboard with two hands: one hand on the numeric keypad, navigating/dodging, the other on the WASZ+SPACE keys. Most players wouldn't know about these last ones, because they were only available if the player didn't have a mouse (or disabled it). Their function was to jump between the hands of the characters. Using both weapons of the fighter characters were only a mere 3 keypress, and a split second, no eye movement required at all. Playing LoG the player (or at least I) spend more time looking at weapon icons (while painstakingly jerking the mouse around to hit them) than the actual monster! Wanna see what the enemy is doing? Have fun positioning the mouse blindly. This alone is a dealbreaker.

I played Eye of the Beholder (all three), and used a mouse. And I didn't see the need to have to keep an eye on the enemy at all times, but that's me. If I remember correctly (and do correct me if I'm wrong, it's been many a year since last I played EotB), weapons in EotB didn't have different weapon speeds. Which made it easier to predict your attacks. But different weapon speed throw a stick in the cogs.

Gabucino wrote:2. Also, EotB had the 'M' key mapped to manipulating doors, objects, and... yes, hidden switches. And it was still a worthy quest to 'M' all the walls of a dungeon, but not cripplingly so with a mouse. (imagine if Wolfenstein 3D required a mouse to open secret walls.)

Ah, yes, I remember that endeles tapping while strafing to search for hidden switches. However, such a possibility removes the need of a keen eye, which in my opinion would ruin some of the purpose having secret switches at all.

Gabucino wrote:3. Casting. Seriously. Why. After 2 levels I recognized how utterly annoying+unusable the mages are in this game, if I wanted to even try to stay in control of the fighting. And why buy a fantasy game whose botched interface mandates trashing all spellcasters? Using runes made no sense. Why not require a Kinect and have the player do some handwaving? A game (especially in this genre!) shouldn't do needlessly stupid things like this. This is not Minesweeper... Just display a list (and have it navigable by keyboard).

I found the mages quite usable, and the rune system was refreshing compared to how magic usually work. And there was a logic in the rune combination for most spells, so it became a little easier once I cracked the "code". I don't say it can't be improved, but once I got the hang of it I found it quite usable. The difficult part was to remember the correct combinations for the different spells in the heat of battle.

Gabucino wrote:4. If all the above falls on deaf ears: at least add an "All Attack" on-screen button which was a new feature in EotB3, precisely because players were needlessly annoyed of the badly designed mouse-controlled GUI that LoG has faithfully reproduced...

Again, different weapon speeds may make this less usefull than it was in EotB3. It could make it so one attacked with all available weapons, but I suspect it would end up with players clicking the "All attack" rapidly to get off attacks as soon as one were ready.

This game was probably designed so one should use a mouse, but perhaps the developers could make it possible for an all-keyboard option with the next game. As far as I see it both options has their pros and cons, depending on player style and preferences.

Jack Dandy wrote:Your opinions on game design are terrible.

+1

LoG breathed fresh life into an old genre, and perhaps even revitalized the genre. There are quirks, certainly, but overall the gaming experience is sheer joy. Protesting a purchase over such minor quibbles is juvenile; you are only hurting yourself. The rest of us put 20+ hours into a lovingly crafted game and supported some developers who took a chance.

In other words: go away. You made it clear you aren't a customer.

Don't see the problem. I play the whole time with the mouse using the optional cursor keys. Only time I touch keyboard is to name a save file.

What a weird thread to start. This is like me seeing a jacket in a store window, then going into the store just to tell the owner the reasons I won't buy the jacket. A normal person would just keep walking.

What's the point? Are you just trying to rub the Dev's noses in your personal dislike of a product that you haven't even bought? Just thank the person whose computer you borrowed to try out the game and leave it at that.