Collective Suggestion Thread [Exp + Quiver + More to come!]

Talk about anything Legend of Grimrock 1 related here.
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coffeeaddict
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Collective Suggestion Thread [Exp + Quiver + More to come!]

Post by coffeeaddict »

***Original Post Updated May 1st 2012 [scroll down to check changes/additions]***

Hello Players and fellow employers of Almost Human,

I apologize in advance if I make any spelling/grammar/pun mistakes as I am typing this in a hurry. [Have to leave for work in 20 mins] :?

The purpose of this thread [as suggested by the title] is to be a collective suggestion thread. However, only reasonable suggestions will be added here. Hopefully, this will get to be a sticky thread. :)

I currently have 2 suggestions on the slate;
#1 Exp system [Why it's bugged and what needs to be changed]
#2 Possible addition of quivers

As most players have noticed, their party members level at different rates at one point or another. This is easily explained in the users manual that members MUST participate in the dispatch of a mob in order to get full [100%] exp, otherwise 50% will be given. This raises the question; what qualifies as participation? From my extensive testing, ANY damage [even 0] counts as participation which will result in 100% exp gain [assuming the mob is dispatched]. However, there is a flaw [a bug] in the exp system; it ONLY counts slots that have damaged a specific mob and not the character themselves. This is a serious problem because switching characters between slots doesn't actually give them the participation flag b/c ONLY the slot themselves are flagged. I personally don't believe this was intended by the developers; however I could be wrong.

Here is an example:

[1][2]
[3][4]

1: Fighter
2: Rogue
3: Mage
4: Archer

Normally in a 4 v 1 [mob] scenario, everyone can easily get full exp [assuming every member triggers the participation flag and that members 3 and 4 can reach(attack) the mob without switching position]. However, in a 4 v 4 scenario, the amount of work required for ALL 4 members to hit the same mob WITHOUT switching position increases exponentially. The player is nearly forced to a) lure the mob into a minimum 2x2 space and kit the mob or b) tank the mob while using projectile weapons(while saving and loading constantly) to ensure ALL members receive the participation flag for 100% exp gain.

A simple solution would be to flag participation by character instead of party position, this would cause less confusion and make the game more fluid [especially for us perfectionists] :D


Moving onto the topic of Quivers~~

I and many other players think it's reasonable to have a dedicated Quiver slot on the equipment page for rogues because it's unrealistic for them to constantly hold arrow(s) the whole-time. Logically, if a rogue can draw arrows with their left/right hand, then it's reasonable to say they could also use the same drawing hand to draw throwing knives, etc. Players will have to access their rogue(s)'s equipment page [inventory] and drop[equip] arrows into the Quiver slot and a arrow count would show above the bow/xbow.

In order to make this "balanced" and "realistic" I propose the following conditions:
***The Quiver slot has to be FOUND [as equipment] OR unlocked by having X amount point(s) in projectile weapons OR both.
My reasoning for this is drawing an arrow AND shooting it fluently requires a certain level of skill and practice.

For example:

#1 A rogue has a bow, arrow(s) and stone(s) equipped = they can freely choose to attack using one of those two weapons per turn.

#2 A rogue has a bow, arrow(s) and shield equipped = they CANNOT attack.

#3 A rogue has a bow, arrow(s) and a sword/dagger/torch/axe/etc = they can ONLY attack with the sword/dagger/torch/etc (one handed weapon only)

As extremely good or bad this idea may sound, the issue lies in the extensive amount of coding and testing required to make it work. So ultimately, it's up to the developers to decide if they want to implement something like this into their game.

This sums up the ideas I have for Legend of Grimrock, please reply with your thoughts/comments/suggestions to support the thread. I think it would be great if this was sticky-ied for all to see. Thanks for reading.


***May 1st 2012 Update Below***

Current Top Suggestions:

#1) Fix the exp system where participation is only tied to party positions [Credit: The LoG community]

#2) Fix the auto ammo pick-up codes [stones, arrows, shurikens, etc] [Credit: rakenan]
Example: If a special arrow is shot and a mob is dispatched; the system will not recognize the new arrow for auto-pickup as it's different from what the archer is using.

#3) Balance dodge to chance ratio on rogues as they are currently too overpowered overall.
Example: A full rogue party can run through hard with their eyes closed.
Last edited by coffeeaddict on Tue May 01, 2012 6:18 am, edited 4 times in total.
M.M
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Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:12 pm

Re: Collective Suggestion Thread [Exp + Quiver + More to com

Post by M.M »

Great idea to have one joint thread for suggestions. No need to have tousands of small ones.

For Your suggestions - with Exp you are trying to Fix what isn't broken. Keep it as it is there is no real problem in here.

As For quivers - it would be really cool to have them - at least two (perhaps to use both a skill would be needed).
It must be noted however, that it is even more unrealistic to have anything in one hand and shoot from a bow in the other. If we introduce quivers, then bow has to be a two handed weapon. Any other solution would be worse in term of realism than current one.
The quivers would allow fast changing of kind of arrows i want to shoot (vanilla, fire etc), or no change for changing ammo after changing weapon (from bow to crossbow).

For my suggestions:
add cleric class. It would cast spells based on non-elemental runes. He would specialise in indirerect spells (buffs, debuffs). Preferably it would came in two different flavours - Physicality clerik - similar to far east monks (unnarmed), and spirituality cleric similar western monks - could use dagger defence.
More spells and more balance between lores. I think earth magic should be more destructive - similar two fire or even better + poison effect, but being effective only against organic creatures - so no undead, golems, ummgardians, spirit etc.
I would also suggest more diversity in monsters behavoiur - like skeletons behind wall of shields being damn hard, something fast immune to siding, something else vulnurable no say cold, etc . It is to enforce more diversity in tactics.
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petri
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Re: Collective Suggestion Thread [Exp + Quiver + More to com

Post by petri »

I don't understand your point about the quiver. What is the problem you're trying to solve? It seems to me that adding a quiver would just make the ui more complicated.
Desphex
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Re: Collective Suggestion Thread [Exp + Quiver + More to com

Post by Desphex »

petri wrote:I don't understand your point about the quiver. What is the problem you're trying to solve? It seems to me that adding a quiver would just make the ui more complicated.
I Agree. You have multiple types of arrows. So where do you want to put them? I guess you can not put them all in the same quiver (Fire, Ice etc) ?

For the rest, i agree as well :)
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Darklord
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Re: Collective Suggestion Thread [Exp + Quiver + More to com

Post by Darklord »

petri wrote:I don't understand your point about the quiver. What is the problem you're trying to solve? It seems to me that adding a quiver would just make the ui more complicated.
I think people want them just becuase it would look pretty, I personally am quite happy with it how it is. :)

For those that want something else hopefully a modder can provide.

Daniel.
A gently fried snail slice is absolutely delicious with a pat of butter...
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coffeeaddict
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Re: Collective Suggestion Thread [Exp + Quiver + More to com

Post by coffeeaddict »

Thanks for the reply everyone :D
M.M wrote:Great idea to have one joint thread for suggestions. No need to have tousands of small ones.
For Your suggestions - with Exp you are trying to Fix what isn't broken. Keep it as it is there is no real problem in here.
I personally think the exp is bugged; here is an example of how it works if it was real life; Credit is not given to the individual who made the most contribution but rather to whoever sits in the spot where the contribution was originally made. Which means you can pretty much take credit for a noble prize if you show up at the right place at the right time without actually making any contribution(s). Which is ridiculous xD :lol:
M.M wrote: For my suggestions:
add cleric class. It would cast spells based on non-elemental runes. He would specialise in indirerect spells (buffs, debuffs). Preferably it would came in two different flavours - Physicality clerik - similar to far east monks (unnarmed), and spirituality cleric similar western monks - could use dagger defence.
More spells and more balance between lores. I think earth magic should be more destructive - similar two fire or even better + poison effect, but being effective only against organic creatures - so no undead, golems, ummgardians, spirit etc.
I would also suggest more diversity in monsters behavoiur - like skeletons behind wall of shields being damn hard, something fast immune to siding, something else vulnurable no say cold, etc . It is to enforce more diversity in tactics.
Thanks for your input and I think it's an interesting idea, however there is currently too many heated discussions regarding mages using rune signs to cast spells. I think it's best to wait until the devs think of something to improve the spell casting system. Once that's sorted out, they can easily add a new skill tree for mages (Cleric, Support, etc). Regarding the mobs; i'm quite sure the devs are already working on adding more mob diversity to give players more choices (tactics) both in and out of combat.


Desphex wrote:I Agree. You have multiple types of arrows. So where do you want to put them? I guess you can not put them all in the same quiver (Fire, Ice etc) ?
For the rest, i agree as well :)
What I had in mind was that only one type of arrow can be equipped in the quiver at a time; other types of arrow would simply have to be carried in your pack. I think this is reasonable and logical. x_x;;
Darklord wrote: I think people want them just becuase it would look pretty, I personally am quite happy with it how it is. :)
For those that want something else hopefully a modder can provide.
Daniel.
The reason for the quiver is to free up a slot for the archer for versatility;
i.e;

1) Equip bow + bombs/throwing knives/etc = more options in combat
2) Equip bow + shield = Cannot atk but gives improved survialbility during odd times when it's best to avoid combat
3) Equip bow + dagger/sword/axe/etc = can only melee atk, however can easily unequip melee weapon to enable range assault.

These may sound like silly ideas but this is a story about 4 ppl trying to survive a challenge of a lifetime; I would personally do anything I can think of to stay alive :lol: wouldn't you??



On a side note, what are your thoughts on my explanation of the experience system and why I believe it's bugged?? Thoughts? Comments? Please reply! ;)


Coffeeaddict~
Last edited by coffeeaddict on Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sagagemini
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Re: Collective Suggestion Thread [Exp + Quiver + More to com

Post by Sagagemini »

I had some suggestions in another thread for a sequel or expansion but some things could be applied in LoG already like simplifying the spell system so you don't have to waste time selecting runes before each cast (which makes mages imo a bad choice, let alone their poor dmg).
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Brodie301
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Re: Collective Suggestion Thread [Exp + Quiver + More to com

Post by Brodie301 »

The XP system is not "bugged or flawed"
I suggest you try this, I did just to negate all the bug/flaw crying here lately.

Start a new game and at EVERY monster encounter make sure that EVERY party member gets in at least one strike. The new game I started I leveled every char at the exact same time and stopped testing when they reached level 7 and by that time I was on floor 5.

As for the quiver I think the devs post above says it all!

Just give me more dungeons and leave the core game mechanics alone.
The FORCE is with me!!!
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Jaelus
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Re: Collective Suggestion Thread [Exp + Quiver + More to com

Post by Jaelus »

Ah now things are beginning to make sense to me. There are actually two bugs that contribute to the problem here.

PLAYER
[1][2]
[3][4]

Let's say your characters are in this configuration when combat begins, and that character 4 is your archer. These spots are locked as soon as the first blow is struck.

For the duration of the fight, character 4 will shoot projectiles on the RIGHT side, even if you swap characters 3 and 4. If you had done the swap immediately prior to combat, character 4 would be shooting on the LEFT side for the entire duration of combat. Once combat is started, missile attacks do not move to the side the character is moved to (bug #1).

For the front rank, swapping characters 1 and 2 would swap their attacks to the other side, but hitting a mob after the swap is made gives credit to the other character (bug #2).

When you're fighting single monsters, this does not matter, but these bugs become exceptionally problematic when you're fighting monsters that move 2, 3, or 4 to a single block.

MONSTERS
[1][2]
[3][4]

PLAYER
[1][2]
[3][4]

So let's take the above configuration. Once combat starts, player character 4 will only be able to shoot monster 4, even if moved to the left side. Characters 1 and 2 can hit monster 3 or 4 depending on what side they are swapped to, but character 1 will not get credit for hitting monster 4, and character 2 will not get credit for hitting monster 3 even if they damage them. If you can use terrain to 2x2 them it's possible to get around this by hitting them facing each cardinal direction, as the rank you will be facing will switch so that each monster will be in position 3 and each in position 4 in turn. If, however, you have to do this in a hallway, these two bugs make it completely impossible for everyone in the party to get full EXP, even if every character damages every monster.

Once monster 3 or 4 is slain, the other will move to the middle and everyone can hit them and get credit. The first monster is a problem though. If you go after monster 3 first, bug #1 prevents character 4 from even being able to hit monster 3 at all, so they can't get EXP for the kill as they were not able to damage the monster. While character 2 can actually hit monster 3, bug #2 prevents character 2 from getting credit for the kill despite hitting it. If you go after monster 4 first, character 4 can hit it and get credit, and so can character 2, but due to bug #2, character 1 cannot get credit for hitting monster 4.

These are bad bugs and should be fixed asap.
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coffeeaddict
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Re: Collective Suggestion Thread [Exp + Quiver + More to com

Post by coffeeaddict »

Jaelus wrote:Ah now things are beginning to make sense to me. There are actually two bugs that contribute to the problem here.
Actually, I've noticed that archers can hit either mob - it's randomized. Regardless of where the archer is, he/she can hit either mob.

Which means, it's possible to get full exp even in a hallway. However this requires the use of a MISSILE weapon i.e Fling + Rock, Bow + Arrow or xBow + Quarrel. This is because missile weapons can target EITHER mob in combat, however which is targeted is completely dependent on % based chance. By doing this, you can easily dispatch a mob after EVERY member in your team has hit the same mob [even 0 damage flags participation]. It's a very tedious solution to a very simple and annoying problem as it involves a lot of load + save and the player has to tank the mobs during this process - quite difficult during early levels. I hope the developers will do something about this in the near future.

~Coffeeaddict
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