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Re: Isle of the Deranged

Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 5:22 pm
by Slayer82
Unkillable Cat -
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I honestly never expected that result. Therefore, you'll need to spawn two more Power Gems or a Water Essence if you want to continue. Otherwise, you'll have to start again. Fuck!
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The three coloured gems are only for bonuses. You use them in the well found in Nomad's Demise - South. They are not important for progress, but yield decent rewards.
Regarding Raisa,
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It's another bonus and as such is not important, but you need to use a dagger.
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In Ktalak's Domain, you need to get the tomb key in order to face Ktalak. It is in the alcove where the trapdoor and spike traps are. You need to pull the lever on the far left (west if you are looking north) to open the spear door. Grab the key, exit there and head north so that you can face Ktalak
Marten_1992
Looks like I'll have to upload another 'final' release <Sigh>. I have at least fixed all of the previous issues, which is good. It's very difficult to think of how a player will behave. When I play test it, I simply do everything in the game and this is the issue. When you can't solve something you merely attempt to find an alternative solution. That's where my errors come to light even after five months of creating it. I have made several changes that will assist in fixing minor issues as well as correcting other errors.

Re: Isle of the Deranged

Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 7:38 pm
by marten_1992
to be frank
I only found it by accident, the solution for the bag
I had spent quite some time trying to figure out how to get it and already given up
but I came back and somehow I suddenly had it
your mod is great and I love playing it and it is so big that probably nobody could ever hope
to find each bug while playtesting it
I cannot estimate the real amount of effort and time you put in this project but I am thankful
you did and in no way I wanted to sound disrespectful !!!
if it was, then I am sorry ! ;)

Re: Isle of the Deranged

Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 2:17 am
by Slayer82
Nah, man! You have been very thoughtful and respectful. I made it so people can enjoy it - you do (and hopefully others do) so that's all that matters.

I'm going to upload another release tonight. Hopefully, this will be the last one :)

Re: Isle of the Deranged

Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 6:31 pm
by Unkillable Cat
Slayer82 wrote:I honestly never expected that result. Therefore, you'll need to spawn two more Power Gems or a Water Essence if you want to continue. Otherwise, you'll have to start again.
Thank you for informing me of this. It comes a little too late though, and I will not restart your mod as it clearly needs more work. It was fun while it lasted, though.

Also, you need to learn more about game design in general. I'm gonna bring up 4 points from your mod that (in my opinion) could have been done better, and offer suggestions on how to improve them. I'm putting this forth as constructive criticism, I'm not being an ass here.

#1: The starter dungeon.
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The starter dungeon is just a few steps short of brilliant. It's tough, non-linear, has plenty of secrets and variety but is never unfair...except at one point, which is the "boss" that must be defeated to be able to escape the dungeon. The problem with him is that there's nothing stopping players from running right into him from the start. There are ominous texts in the dungeon, yes, but they don't express this point strongly enough. You have stated here on the forums several times that players should build up their strength before taking on this boss, but you don't state this well enough where it matters: In-game.

There are many ways to address this, but the quickest and easiest method is to leave a note in the passage that leads to the boss that clearly states that past this point is a tough monster that should only be confronted by a strong and experienced party. It could be a note from a "prior occupant" who leaves this note as a warning how he barely escaped with his life while his friends weren't so fortunate, something like that. Which reminds me, something similar may be needed in-game to inform players that they really should try to get their hands on water-fighting weapons before exploring the water sections of the dungeon.

Lastly, I strongly urge you to reconsider the point we discussed about the starting cage and the "hidden" branches. First impressions are very important, and my interest in this mod was almost killed by the current implementation of the starting point.
#2: Cause and effect in puzzles.
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This is by far the biggest problem I had with your mod. Far too many times I would come upon a door, a lock, a gate, a puzzle or some other obstacle and there would be no obvious way to get past it. Fair enough, it's not always supposed to be obvious and players are supposed to experiment to solve most of them, but this mod had too many solutions involving actions that either had little or no connection to circumstances, or were needlessly annoying.

Puzzles would be presented that, when solved, would leave the player clueless as to what they were there for. What did the player gain from solving the puzzle? Should the player have to go look around and see what has changed? If so, how far should he have to go? Around the corner, to the other end of the map? To another map entirely? The number of times I had to walk around and check EVERYWHERE to see what exactly changed by pulling a lever or pushing a button became very tiring early on. "Local" puzzles should have local solutions and local effects. It's only with the grand overreaching puzzles, or puzzles that will open up new maps to the player, where this rule can be ignored. This "rule" has been in effect since the early days of dungeon crawlers, and it's there for a reason.

Puzzles would be presented that had obvious solutions, but those solutions would be located far FAR away. The key to the door leading to the Sentinel, for example, is located 3 maps away in the Excavation Site. By my books that's too far away, especially considering that entering the Excavation Site requires finding a not-so-obvious button.

Puzzles would come up with no clues or hints whatsoever, and sometimes even misleading ones. The Raisa puzzle is a good example of the last point. Raisa has been imprisoned and needs to be freed, but the only clue provided is to use "a Thief's weapon of choice" to open the lock. What is the Thief's weapon of choice to beat a lock? A lockpick, that's what. Because thieves are looters first and foremost, not killers, and this is a lock that we're dealing with here and not some fat nobleman loaded with money. But no, the solution to the puzzle is to use a dagger on the lock. It's not a far-fetched solution, granted, but the problems with this puzzle are not over, as the next paragraph will show.

Puzzles would come up that had solutions that require excessive, pointless work from the player. The Raisa puzzle is the PERFECT example of this. We've established that the lock requires a dagger to be unlocked, now the only problem is finding a dagger. Assuming the party even has a dagger at this point is a long stretch, except perhaps for the Etheral Dagger after that recent fight with the Air Elementals - except that dagger doesn't work. Neither does the Buccaneer's Dagger, or the Assassin's Dagger, or the Punching Knife or even the Throwing Knifes (of which there are plenty). No, it MUST be a generic and regular "Dagger" like the one(s) found in the starter dungeon, and nowhere else it seems (I don't remember seeing a dagger lying around on the same map as the Raisa puzzle. Is there one? There should be.) That means that a LOT of players will have to go back to whereever they dumped their Dagger (which for most players was early on in the mod) and then make their way back to Raisa's prison to be finally able to free her. That involves a LONG walk, and brings us to my next point.
#3: Getting around the island.
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The maps in your mod are laid on out an East-West axis, with the players starting in the middle. Once players begin exploring the island for real, they will start to get annoyed that there's no quicker way to get across places on the island than by foot, especially since they'll have to divide their attention between two directions. The original Legend of Grimrock 2 campaign acknowledged this, and allows for a small network of teleporters to be set up within a central hub that's conveniently located on the map closest to the "center" of the game world. Hell, the first Eye of the Beholder game, released 25 years ago, realized this and implemented a system of teleporters to allow players to get around the dungeon more easily.

While you have set up teleporters in your mod, they're all located on the far western side of the map, and they're all one-way. It takes quite a while and effort to reach them, and while they cut down the travel time by 50%, they could just as easily have followed the two examples set above and cut the travel time down by 75% or even 90%, once players have gone through the trouble of accessing the teleporters in the first place.

In addition, a handful of maps are more annoying to travel across than others. While the forest areas are mostly a case of just following the simple path, the swamp requires a rather long swim to reach the Etheral Plains, and the Catacombs are a long, winding passage. For no reason.

I urge you to change the set up of your teleporters. This calls for a massive change, I know, but players will be very grateful for it. But at the end it's your call.
#4: Playtesting a mod is important.

Simply put, you skipped this phase. You released the mod when you thought it was complete, when it clearly wasn't. At the end of the day you're just one guy, you can't account for everything that may happen with your work. Second (and third, and fourth) opinions are important and very helpful. I downloaded this mod because I read this forum thread and was under the impression that the mod had been playtested, and only had minor kinks and bugs to work out...yet I went and broke your mod quite good and proper without barely trying. :)

Lots of first-time modders make this kind of mistake, no matter their age.

At this point I'd say that your mod is in open-beta. It's very close to be ready to be "released", but there's still some work to be done.

But above all, don't give up. You've come a long way with this and you're doing great so far - but no one gets it right on the first try.

Good luck.

Re: Isle of the Deranged

Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 10:23 pm
by mamoulian73
First I would like to thank the author for this fantastic mod. It is huge and intricate. Sometimes a bit obscure but that is all the better for me :) Anyway, I am hopelessly stuck and so I would humbly ask for advice:

1) In the Excavation Site I am simply unable to get into the huge southern section. I did complete two northern puzzles but there is a third spike door blocking my entry when I get back to beginning and try to enter.
2) I just cannot travel south from Eastern Zhaoze. There is a teleport doing nothing and a portcullis closed there, also there is another spike door blocking my passage over a bridge south right by an entrance. I believe I did everything else on this level but I just cant solve this.

Also there might be a bug in the Excavation site with the niche wanting something "bloody" after the trap-runnig corridor. When I place a fish in the niche the game sounds the secret chime but nothing happens..

Thank you for helping me and THANKS for this fantastic free MOD, I am having tons of fun with it man :)

Re: Isle of the Deranged

Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 10:46 pm
by marten_1992
the niche you are talking about needs a
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red mushroom
afair

Re: Isle of the Deranged

Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 3:12 am
by Slayer82
Unkillable Cat, how are you?

You do make some valid point in regards to criticisms of the mod.
1) I'll fix the ability to battle the boss without prior knowledge of its strength.
* I've added a new underwater weapon. It was added in the last update. There are now several weapons that can be used underwater now – two different Spears, two Harpoons, and the Buccaneer's Blade. The latter is in the Cursed Dungeon.
* If you were almost put off by dropping a branch, then that's unfortunate. I'm still not changing this as people are able to make up their own mind as to whether or not they want to invest in the mod. If the player becomes irritated by dropping both branches, then the mod is not for them. My young cousin who has never played LoG before (or any other Dungeon Crawler) solved this puzzle in 30 seconds. However, your concerns are noted.
2) Well-made point. However, LoG2 is in no way different in this regards. In Isle of the Deranged (IotD), a few maps may separate a key and lock, but when you arrive at the lock, all you have to do is simply try a key on a lock. Most levers, buttons, and puzzles are opened/activated within the same map. This is an adventure game, and regarding the plot, it is an experiment. You're not told everything, and as such you need to journey. The aspect of the game is to search for answers. The isle seems like it is a peaceful and calming place, but it is not. You are supposed to feel isolated and abandoned. Having teleporters everywhere and answers to everything breaks that immersion.
* Thieves have weapons. They use daggers. The Raisa puzzle is a bonus, so you aren't gifted the rewards. Again, play LoG2 again to see how ambiguous the puzzles are. Those puzzles are imperative for progression whereas in IotD many are not. There two daggers in the game. One is in the Cursed Dungeon, the other on the Main Beach near the giant castle. If you don't have them, then you don't get the bonus. You are still able to complete the game.
3) 'They' is most likely you. I am yet to hear complaints regarding arduous walking. Fair enough that you find it annoying, but that's my design choice. Also, see point two.
4) No, I didn't skip the testing. You don't know what I did and didn't do, so please refrain from generalisations and speculations. As I mentioned on several occasions it took me months to create it and play test it. I didn't have anyone to play test it as this is a niche game - no one I know owns it.
I think I did a good job for one person, who didn’t write a single thing down. Seriously, I just started making the mod without planning or typing. Besides the three simple errors that halted the player from being able to progress, I feel that I did amazingly well. Yes, I know I should have planned it, but that’s not how art works, and games are art. Now I await more criticisms for not planning/scribing etc... <lol> :)
I do appreciate the feedback, though.

Re: Isle of the Deranged

Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 3:20 am
by Slayer82
Hello, mamoulian73. I'm glad you like my obscure mod... It is obscure isn't it?

1)
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Place a Bloodroot cap into the alcove. This part is only a secret, so there's no need to worry.
2)
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You need to solve the moving block puzzle in the north-west area. This is done by activating the floor plates, then placing the blocks on the correct floor tiles. Activate them by pressing the large secret button to the north-west located near the dead swamp tree. You must also place items on the three underwater pressure plates to open the southern spear door. They are located east, south, and in the centre of the main river.

Re: Isle of the Deranged

Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 7:27 am
by mamoulian73
Thank you for answering my question Slayer but you answered only one of the two, let me resend the first one:

1) In the Excavation Site I am simply unable to get into the huge southern section. I did complete two northern puzzles but there is a THIRD spike door blocking my entry when I get back to beginning of the map and try to enter the new corridor.

Also, could you please give me a hint how to disable the force field blocking a lever in southern Zhaoze.. I guess that must be the way to get to the elemental gem on an island next to it.. thanks :)

Re: Isle of the Deranged

Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 9:18 am
by Slayer82
mamoulian73 , of course! :)
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1) There are two puzzle in the far north of the excavation site. One is the 'Test Your Might' area with a secret button at the end of the battles. The secret button is on the adjacent side. This puzzle uses items to open the various doors. Both the Test Your Might and rock/doorway puzzles have secret buttons. Press them all and both spear doors open. There are three secret buttons within that area, so press them all and you can journey to the southern part.
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2) I can, and I will. You need to head east where there are various underwaterpressure plates and mine spear doors. Solve that little puzzle, then climb the far ladder. Ignore the rat and pull the lever. Then head far south, and then east. You will see a teleporter that was previously blocked by ruins walls. Enter it and make your way to the water. Solve the underwater pressure plate puzzle, and then head back to where you see a Zarchton trapped in a cage. Simply walk on the pressure plate to deactivate the force field.
Any time you need help, just ask. I frequent this site and Nexus Mods so there is always help to be found.