Grimrock

cryocore wrote:

Pipsissiwa wrote:There is already a monster toughness setting which makes combat easier/harder. That aspect of the game is already user-customisable to suit the indivisual gamer. The game even SAYS its for peole who want to concentrate on puzzles rather than combat, thus appealling to more than one playing style be default. What is the difference if they added a setting that make timed puzzles give you slightly more/less time? If you don't need it leave it on normal, or even crank it to hard if really want a challenge. Just like the monster toughness slider.

By design the monsters can be changed. By design the puzzles cant. Which completely validates my point.

It seems the time can be changed in the debug console - so the mechanism is there behind the scenes, just not currently implemented. Seems they thought about it, and thought about it enough to leave the code in. Maybe they will decide to put it in. Its up to them, not you.

xdeath wrote:This is the way I've been feeling.
Which is why I get so frustrated when people like the OP, pull the whole "Go play another game" BS.
I've finished the game, and there is nothing I want changed. However, I readily realize that some people are physically or mentally incapable of succeeding in this game.
There should be options for those people. I find it incredibly selfish that the OP and others are making post attacking people who are just asking for alternatives.
Alternatives that would be completely optional and would not ruin the experience for anyone else.

It's not just "making things easier" which people seem to focus on. There are many things that they could do which would enhance the experience, both in usability and in fun and atmosphere, for all players - including those who have trouble and those who have breezed through the game.

xdeath wrote:I readily realize that some people are physically or mentally incapable of succeeding in this game.
There should be options for those people.

Why? There is always going to be something that precludes someone using or enjoying a product. Saying that something needs to have options to mitigate this is the worst sort of PC short sightedness.
Should it be made free for the poor? Or voice controlled for people with no hands? Should it require only "push space to proceed" to the intellectually handicapped? If your statement is true then it needs to include EVERYONE regardless of limitation.

cryocore wrote:

xdeath wrote:I readily realize that some people are physically or mentally incapable of succeeding in this game.
There should be options for those people.

Why? There is always going to be something that precludes someone using or enjoying a product. Saying that something needs to have options to mitigate this is the worst sort of PC short sightedness.
Should it be made free for the poor? Or voice controlled for people with no hands? Should it require only "push space to proceed" to the intellectually handicapped? If your statement is true then it needs to include EVERYONE regardless of limitation.

Well, as far as accessibility goes, it's a pretty easy equation. If the estimated number of purchases outweighs the cost of implementation, you do it. Without people saying what they want, there's no way for the company to know whether or not they should do the implementation.

antti wrote:Let me copypaste something I posted on a thread I locked:

Everyone can post on these forums and the game is not designed for "certain types of people" and we welcome all sorts of feedback. Discussions and differing opinions relating to the design of the game can be had on the forums as long as the discussions steer clear of flaming.

In short, I don't want the following argument used on this forum: "the game is not designed for you so STFU". Everyone has a right to their opinion as long as it is communicated in a nice and polite manner.

Please keep this in mind when discussing in this thread and elsewhere.

Thank you antti,

This is the point many of us have been trying to make. But as usually we get flame basted for our comments and thoughts. Appreciate the reiteration.

I don't know why there's even an argument to be had here...the dev's said themselves they welcome all feedback (as long as it's polite) and the game is not aimed only for a specific group of gamers but all gamers.

xdeath wrote:Which is why I get so frustrated when people like the OP, pull the whole "Go play another game" BS.

I admit, I only glanced through the OP's post, so I don't know what exactly his point was. There's three kinds of requests (or demands) on these forums though;

1. Accessibility (dexterity, fobias, etc)
2. Interface requests (more keyboard shortcuts)
3. Make game more like game X

I have no beef with group #1.
I have slight issues with #2, but those things are mostly a matter of taste.
I disagree with most (if not all) requests in the group #3.

Most of the stuff in group 1 should be handled, if they don't mean massive changes to the game.
Some of the interface changes are sensible, other requests less so (as they might change the game balance).
As for the third.. if they can easily enable modders to do things like that, fine.

Cryo has a point, I'm afraid. Opening the door to argument about what can be done to adjust any game to a certain playstyle or player skill level means creating an infinite number of tweaks.

The game already has options to adjust to players who want a more casual experience or players who don't find it fun to click through weapon and spell slots at the speed of light - it's called Easy difficulty. There's also the option for hardcore old gits called Hard difficulty. I play on Normal because I'm an average Joe who likes dungeon crawls.

Beyond that, the number of complaints that can be made about any aspect of the game's difficulty is infinite.
This is a little like buying Myst and Doom 2 on the same day, then complaining to your friends Myst is too vague and the puzzles - too hard, then complaining that Doom 2 is unfairly hard because you die all the time on the first difficulty setting.

Except back then you couldn't watch gameplay previews and extensive trailers on youtube.

cryocore wrote:"slowing things down" as you put it is imo contrary to the style of the game and the execution of it. Next you'll have people wanting FPS's ot have 100% auto aim so the less skilled can complete it, or an insta kill option for a fighting game for people who cant cope with difficulty. What you're suggesting is actively opposite of the intention of the game. Catering to people who are not the target audience is why gaming is becoming more and more homogeneous and why people have lower and lower expectations about what is expected from a game. It also means that people like myself who have not dropped their expectation get labelled as elitists or hipsters, or some other equally dismissive title. Catering to the lowest common denominator is why we get watered down games, or rinse and repeat sequels or the worst crime of all "reboots" that bare nothing or little in common with their preprocessors (syndicate and the FPS XCOM being two examples).

I can see where you're coming from but are they really "watering down" the entire game by adding an option to (for example) increase the amount of time you get for timed puzzles? It's optional and up for the player to make use of. Certainly the game might not have been designed with that in mind, but still. I can imagine that there might be quite a few people out there who may very well be able to complete the rest of the game if it were not for that one non-optional segment with a timed puzzle. No-one is demanding that puzzles don't have a timer anymore or that enemies stop attacking.

They even added the optional GUI piece that allows movement of your party with the mouse because one disabled person asked for it. The result? Affected people can enjoy the game and I'm pretty sure that no "harm" was done by putting in that feature.

cryocore wrote:

xdeath wrote:I readily realize that some people are physically or mentally incapable of succeeding in this game.
There should be options for those people.

Why? There is always going to be something that precludes someone using or enjoying a product. Saying that something needs to have options to mitigate this is the worst sort of PC short sightedness.
Should it be made free for the poor? Or voice controlled for people with no hands? Should it require only "push space to proceed" to the intellectually handicapped? If your statement is true then it needs to include EVERYONE regardless of limitation.

Why not? If it is simply a case of having some settings people can change I don't understand why that is such an issue for you. If you don't want the game to change, you could just ignore those settings and the game would be identical for you as it is now. You would be completely unaffected in any way. You could even not download the updated version and stick with the one you have now...

Or is it just that then you couldn't be so proud of your achievements because someone else may have got the same ones on an easier setting? I'm just can't understand your obsession with trying to ensure this game doesn't change in any way, even in ways that wouldn't affect you. Your argument of 'this is how the game is and it cannot/must not change' is very unusual. I'm struggling to think of any I've played from the last 10 years that hasn't been patched for bugs and added/removed features, and many have been for the better. Its also easy to assume something is perfect, then a change gets made and you suddenly realise that the change is a good idea after all. Until it happens it can be hard to predict.

Your obsession with the immutability of this (and I can only assume) other games/things is very hard to understand. Pretty much all games/software evolve after release, why should this be any different. Our ideas and suggestions come primarily because we LOVE the game, just the same as you. Just because the devs designed it carefully over years doesn't mean they thought of everything. Ideas and inspiration can come from unlikely sources at any time. I wonder if some our our suggestions had been in game when it was launched, would you be fine with them as they were already there and thus 'as designed''?

And a great point by Minax: "They even added the optional GUI piece that allows movement of your party with the mouse because one disabled person asked for it. The result? Affected people can enjoy the game and I'm pretty sure that no "harm" was done by putting in that feature." Nicely made.