Grimrock

Loktofeit wrote:That you suggest the save system as an option has me wondering if you've ever actually tried that for this puzzle.

The game is totally paused in the menu, you know.
Press the button, do a run for it, save (or just press escape to be able to put mouse pointer over the button without wasting time), press the next button, rince, repeat.
I just replayed the whole sequence using one temporary save and got it easily and in the first try (as opposed to re-trying it about 4 times when I first encountered that puzzle).

Oh, and do some strafing.

The_ShadoW wrote: Oh, and do some strafing.

Yes, strafing is the big time saver in that particular puzzle. Definitely helped me shave off seconds getting to the second to last button.

dark wrote:
But what do many of us get for our trouble. We get people that turn on you and bash you and then tell you that this game isn’t for you. That’s how people treat others when we have an issue with the game.

+1

Pipsissiwa wrote:

jfunk wrote:
It may be a fixable bug, but on the other hand only those that do not meet the minimum system requirements have reported the problem so far. They do exist for a reason.

In fairness, only four of us with this issue have actually posted our system specs and one is way above min spec (plus another who was easily above min but their issue may not have been quite the same), so that is maybe something of an assumption.

Here's my specs:

Operating System: Windows 7 Enterprise 64-bit Service Pack 1
Processor: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU 930 @ 2.80GHz (8 CPUs), ~2.8GHz
Memory: 4096MB RAM
Card name: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 260


The core part of the problem is in the rather exact timing ( ~400ms per step to avoid failure) makes it physically difficult to even test and discover the solution in the first place. Without hints and walkthroughs already out by some of the awesome members of the LoG community, this would have been exponentially more frustrating as the timers just don't lend themselves for a reasonable level of discovery in some cases.

To explain that further, the discovery portion of many of these timed puzzles requires doing an action and then immediately paying attention to visual and audible cues for the effect of that action. The audible cues are present throughout the game. Due to four-direction positioning and short timers it is difficult to identify position at times but unless you're standing on a pit or in a fireball it's not a problem. Visual cues become a problem. When stationary, identifying a cue is relatively easy, however when turning to spot a change or movement, the user's time to identify and react to a situation is extremely reduced, as your eye takes 1/5 of a second just to register the new screen of information before the mind can even study it. In several cases the user is plummeting to the bottom of a pit before they can physically determine what occurred as a result of their movement or particular interaction with the game environment.

Slightly longer timers could improve the discovery aspect of the game tremendously and, as a result, reduce some of the frustration of in solving and completing timed puzzles.

Loktofeit wrote: The core part of the problem is in the rather exact timing ( ~400ms per step to avoid failure) makes it physically difficult to even test and discover the solution in the first place. Without hints and walkthroughs already out by some of the awesome members of the LoG community, this would have been exponentially more frustrating as the timers just don't lend themselves for a reasonable level of discovery in some cases.

To explain that further, the discovery portion of many of these timed puzzles requires doing an action and then immediately paying attention to visual and audible cues for the effect of that action. The audible cues are present throughout the game. Due to four-direction positioning and short timers it is difficult to identify position at times but unless you're standing on a pit or in a fireball it's not a problem. Visual cues become a problem. When stationary, identifying a cue is relatively easy, however when turning to spot a change or movement, the user's time to identify and react to a situation is extremely reduced, as your eye takes 1/5 of a second just to register the new screen of information before the mind can even study it. In several cases the user is plummeting to the bottom of a pit before they can physically determine what occurred as a result of their movement or particular interaction with the game environment.

Slightly longer timers could improve the discovery aspect of the game tremendously and, as a result, reduce some of the frustration of in solving and completing timed puzzles.

Yes, yes and more yes.
That is all.

jfunk wrote:
Judging from the responses accumulating here, I think this really is boiling down to a basic performance issue. The timing seems to be affected by poor performance. In other words, the "game time" and the graphics updates do not slow down at the same rate, so those experiencing sub-par performance are actually losing relative "action time" in the process.

I think too that this is the key issue. Performance drop doesn't affect the player and the game the same way.

However since I reduced or turned off some gfx options, the game works really fine and I don't feel such a loss in visual aspect. The keystroke buffering problem is no more an issue as the responsiness is so much better. (I also think it buffers only one stroke).
Here I think that better informations about this issue could reduce the frustration experienced by some players.


I've been playing this kind of game since Wizardry I, in the early 80, to DM, Black Crypt, and EotB on Amiga and I don't remember any of those titles were testing my dexterity so much. I don't despise arcade adventure games (or any other genre, if I don't play them for personal reasons), but again this is a case of properly advertising the game for what it is, just take a look at the game official page. So I don't expect a Tomb Raider type of game.

The game brings back the oldschool challenge with highly tactical real-time combat and grid-based movement, devious hidden switches and secrets as well as deadly traps and horrible monsters. Legend of Grimrock puts an emphasis on puzzles and exploration and the wits and perception of the player are more important tools than even the sharpest of swords could be

Also note that the game is vaunted as an Old-school dungeon crawling game inspired by Dungeon Master. So implicitely, but not exclusively of course, it targets Old- school players who have played DM. And, as the word imply, Old- school players are not as young as they were when DM was released. The dexterity and coordination of a 40 year old player is not the same as a 20 years old one

Delta66 wrote:The dexterity and coordination of a 40 year old player is not the same as a 20 years old one

I can't play MK anymore but I can run through LoG's puzzles without any noticeable effort (now, claiming "get to level 2 in under 4 minutes" achievement WAS an effort, but more of an intellect rather than button-mashing skills). What am I doing wrong?

PS: Oh, it may be the fact that I'm not 40-years old yet. Merely 30.

If you really have a problem with it, see the modding forum. Get yourself a debug console, and:

gameMode.timeMultiplier = 0.5

You now have twice as long to do everything, and it takes twice as long to do. If it's just reflexes, this should help.

Pipsissiwa wrote:

dark wrote:
But what do many of us get for our trouble. We get people that turn on you and bash you and then tell you that this game isn’t for you. That’s how people treat others when we have an issue with the game.

+1

+1, though what I lost in dexterity with age is somehow balanced by an improved way to dodge bashing

Agreed with the loss of visual informations due to speed. In lvl 4, once I understood that the secret button in "Trails of Thought" raised the traps that lead to another button in the central room. The time it tooks to quickly reach that button and move back to safety, I haven't the time to turn around to notice that this second button turn off the portal for a short time. Note also that this puzzle require a rather long sequence of actions, much more than 5-6.


Personally I also vote for more leeway on timing puzzles. I could understand that some players might want extra hardcore difficult challenges, but here an option on timing issue, like the one for monster strength could be useful.

seebs wrote:If you really have a problem with it, see the modding forum. Get yourself a debug console, and:

gameMode.timeMultiplier = 0.5

You now have twice as long to do everything, and it takes twice as long to do. If it's just reflexes, this should help.

A good suggestions but to me it seems rather a shame that we would have to resort to this, even if it works. It smacks of cheating to me - it would make completing it less satisfying somehow (although I admit on some puzzles completing it at all would be a bonus lol). I'm sure others would be happy - its a just matter of opinion after all. I just what the game to work properly as it is, as its not really a reflexes thing with me.

Plus if this is possible, I like the idea someone suggested in a another thread that we could have a slider or easy/normal/hard setting for increasing time on timed puzzles (it doesn't have to be much, just an extra second would help). There is a setting for monster toughness - if that is OK game design and we don't get people complaining about why that is there, why not include one for timed puzzles?