Grimrock

Cr0ne wrote:PC gamers as a group should be pushing to get games on as many platforms as possible - and stick to open APIs wherever possible. Windows market share has been slowly shrinking for the last decade...does anyone really think it won't continue to shrink for the next 20 years? Windows isn't the future - I gaurantee you within 10-15 years Windows will no longer be the dominant platform for PC gaming.

Windows isn't the future? That's probably one of the most ignorant statements posted on this topic so far. I mean, even if the underlying implication is true (Windows will not be the primary Leader in the future) the overall statement ignores the role Windows plays in both the past and present. Not to mention that Windows spans multiple industries (gaming, database, workflow, content management, cloud, distributed architectures, security frameworks). So whatever nonsensical conclusion you tried to make after stating something so ignorant is really non-applicable in that thing we call "the real world."

I'm not a Windows advocate either but wow that was pretty dumb

Azel wrote:

Cr0ne wrote:PC gamers as a group should be pushing to get games on as many platforms as possible - and stick to open APIs wherever possible. Windows market share has been slowly shrinking for the last decade...does anyone really think it won't continue to shrink for the next 20 years? Windows isn't the future - I gaurantee you within 10-15 years Windows will no longer be the dominant platform for PC gaming.

Windows isn't the future? That's probably one of the most ignorant statements posted on this topic so far. I mean, even if the underlying implication is true (Windows will not be the primary Leader in the future) the overall statement ignores the role Windows plays in both the past and present. Not to mention that Windows spans multiple industries (gaming, database, workflow, content management, cloud, distributed architectures, security frameworks). So whatever nonsensical conclusion you tried to make after stating something so ignorant is really non-applicable in that thing we call "the real world."

I'm not a Windows advocate either but wow that was pretty dumb

I do not understand...you didn't explain what was dumb. My conclusion makes quite a lot of sense.

Let's go over the "industries" you mentioned...

Gaming: Microsoft's main business/$$$ here is with XBox, not with PC gaming
Database: Microsoft's market share is tiny in this sector compared to Oracle and others (Postgres/Mysql) which run almost exclusively on Linux.
Applications (I'll lump workflow, content management in here): Windows has only 33% market share here and shrinking...with the rest belonging to Unix-family OSes.
Cloud: I hesitate to call this an "industry" as it's just a buzzword...but by far the "Cloud" market leader as far as business applications go is Amazon and all their platforms are Linux-based.
Distributed architectures: (This is another word for 'cloud')
Security frameworks???.. Microsoft is and has never seriously been a leading player in anything related to security.

Microsoft has three things going for them: XBox, workstations, & family computers....that's it...and the high-end market for PCs has been shifting in Apple's favor for a while. XBox I admit is great, but I'm not going to be playing or want to play Grimrock, DOTA, and other "PC" games on a console. I won't even say anything that doesn't need to be said about their phone business.

I don't know what more I need to say to make it obvious they are fading (if slowly) into obscurity. You may have grown up playing PC games on Windows 95-XP, but don't forget that computer gaming existed before then. Do you have any children? Kids are playing games on phones and if they want to "upgrade" at all they either want a console, ipad, or a Mac (laptop of course). It's a different world from where we grew up in...and I'm literally afraid PC gaming may fade into obscurity like Windows if publishers don't start putting stuff out on other platforms.

cr0ne wrote: Windows market share has been slowly shrinking for the last decade...does anyone really think it won't continue to shrink for the next 20 years? Windows isn't the future - I gaurantee you within 10-15 years Windows will no longer be the dominant platform for PC gaming.

cr0ne wrote: It's a different world from where we grew up in...and I'm literally afraid PC gaming may fade into obscurity like Windows if publishers don't start putting stuff out on other platforms.

Hi cr0ne,
I share your observation that PC/Windows since 10-5 years feels like a fading platform, and perceive MS as a fading industry giant. Partly, as MS itself tried to kill the PC as gaming Platform (Xbox), partly as they failed to catch the cloud and mobile market, partly as they are still seen as the black sheep of the IT industry in war with FOSS ecosystem & open "things".

cr0ne wrote:Longtime Linux dev and gamer here...just had to make an account for this.
PC gamers as a group should be pushing to get games on as many platforms as possible - and stick to open APIs wherever possible.

And I totally share your feeling that we as PC users/gamers and especially developers should support open technologies... and then it comes to mind that for the PC as open, free platform, where everyone can built and deploy hardware and software without control of a central instance (unlike the Apple ecosystem), MS deserves partly credit, too. Infact, I'm pretty thankful against MS for 25 years of open and free platform computing (and happy that Valve's levering of linux as frightening instrument worked out, preventing a Apple like-lock down).

Therefore I also think If key parts of the Windows ecosystem would become open-source and excluded from patent threats it would be still worthy, useful and a win for the free and open PC ecosystem. Windows could be still key part of the PC (and maybe beyond) platform, especially as the alternative, the not-really PC thinggy Linux, still struggles in becoming a viable platform for the PC use-case (Android gave an example what needs to be changed). Several good signs in the direction of keeping windows a important IT infrastructure element by bringing it more near to the FOSS domain: on one side the approaches of the open source community itself: WINE (which is pretty complete until DX9, DX11+ progresses good), mono, ReactOS and also the trend of MS to active open-source parts of its platform like recently .net. My understanding here is that Nadella really is willing to do a serious step into direction of FOSS... even indicating a opening of windows itself.

cr0ne wrote:Cloud: I hesitate to call this an "industry" as it's just a buzzword

Another thing that just proves a bit of ignorance. I don't mean that as an insult I just find it truly baffling when part of what I do for a living is work with people who specialize in Cloud computing and architectures.

Call it what you will, it is a multimillion dollar buzzword/industry/thing where Amazon is a leading service provider. Cloud Computing has a very specific architecture, different than that of standard dedicated hardware and virtual machines; but yeah, call it a buzzword as you try to convince people you understand technology enough to predict the next 10, 15, or 20 years

There's lots of things like "history" and "facts" that could be stated to refute much of what you're trying to say, but why bother when you're just speculating based on inaccurate generalizations and your own personal bias. Besides, you got badhabits attention and he loves speculating based on terrible information so have fun with that

Although I will say that unlike badhabit you seem to be fairly intelligent, so I have no idea what has brought you to make some of these claims. Bad experience with Microsoft at work? Is there a .NET Framework developer that's making your life miserable?

Azel wrote:[wordy, base-less blabla mixed with random personal insults of a troll without manners & over-confidence]

PS: some good read for a self-perceived 'intellectual' like you, kruger-dunning effect

Azel wrote:.. but yeah, call it a buzzword as you try to convince people you understand technology enough to predict the next 10, 15, or 20 years

This says all there is to say.
Just think back 10 to 15 years. Which technology seen in PC's today was
- there
- new
- just an idea
- not even thought of
back then?

For example without Apple nobody would talk about iOS or mobile devices today. They simply won't exist. Other PC companies tried the same route before Apple and they all miserably failed.

Dr.Disaster wrote:This says all there is to say.
Just think back 10 to 15 years. Which technology seen in PC's today was
- there
- new
- just an idea
- not even thought of
back then?

For example without Apple nobody would talk about iOS or mobile devices today. They simply won't exist. Other PC companies tried the same route before Apple and they all miserably failed.

Very true. Who knows who will be the leader in PC gaming (or gaming in general) 2 decades from now, but 20 years in "IT World" is like 200 years in standard innovation time. I am far from a Microsoft loyalist but it's hard to deny that they can and will do whatever it takes to stay a top contender. Just look at what they did with console gaming. Before the XBox, Microsoft was not in the console market. As soon as they saw that there was a real opportunity, they enlisted Bungie to create Halo. That was great judgement (Bungie did an amazing job with Myth I and Myth II prior to Halo) on Microsoft's part. Due to the Myth series as soon as I heard Bungie was creating Halo I knew it would become an instant hit.

Halo not only became a great gaming franchise, but it made a bit of history with the "Red vs Blue" film series. Not to mention the line of books, toys... all because of great judgment and talent.

Wherever the gaming trend takes us, the name Microsoft will very likely be somewhere in the mix.

After reading the replies to this post I am very disapointed. It seems that most of you don't value computer freedom. Just remember that losing computer freedom also means losing other freedoms like free speech for everyone. I suppose DRM (Digital Restrictions Management), viruses, backdoors, and spyware is also cool with you guys. Yes most games are restricted software but as a gamer I don't have much choice. At least I have some freedom with my linux pc. Here are some things to consider. Not wanting to use Windows has nothing to do with money becouse I still would not want to use Windows even if it cost no money. Using wine is not a good answer becouse many games don't work or have poor performance and it counts as a windows sale which means less games for Linux. I challenge you Windows gamers on here to try using wine like your asking me to do. Marketshare and userbase are not the same thing also many factors make this so called 1% not accerate. Making Linux games is only hard if devs start with building it around Windows using Windows only tools like DirectX instead of OpenGL and make Linux a afterthought which seems to be the case here. Having many Linux distros does not seem to be a problem for Valve. Just make the game for Debian and Ubuntu based distros which is what most Linux distros are based on then let the community help port the game to other Linux distros. Here is a video for you guys to think about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztd9m71Jc-Y Anyway I am done here.

megamanx1978, you got no idea what you are talking about.
Freedom is to let others do what they want. Telling others what you want them to do is not.

megamanx1978 wrote: I challenge you Windows gamers on here to try using wine like your asking me to do. Marketshare and userbase are not the same thing also many factors make this so called 1% not accerate.

People who play World of WarCraft using this approach are doing just fine. If you're poor then stop posting on gaming forums for games you can't afford to play, go cut some lawn, and start working on being a paying member of society. Gosh