Grimrock

Voidwatcher wrote:I am also trying to understand what the OP has such an aversion against. Mods and DLCs increases the replayability of the game and also generates more funds for a small indie-developer. The more money they can generate, the higher the chances are that they can actually afford creating a sequel. The Dungeon Editor will also ensure that there will always be tons of new content for players to enjoy for many years to come, ensuring that the title lives on pas the original content.

Loktofeit wrote:
Greco wrote:
I don't doubt that there are there many people who can make interesting puzzles, but are these people willing to spend so much time? Perhaps you are right and I am wrong. Honestly, do you have any case of MOD/DLC for games other than puzzleless FPS and modern RPGs?


Here's two:

Wizardry 8 - Reforged
Neverwinter Nights - CEP Nexus


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Do they involve any puzzles? I think they are both hasck and slash, quest based rpgs!

This is where I have to stop you. I cannot speak for Wizardry 8 Reforged as I have never played those titles. But as for Neverwinter Nights, oh you sure have missed out on a great deal here. Together with 3 other people we ran and managed a Persistant World where we would have sittings of leading our players through regular hack and slash as you call it but also tons of cryptic puzzles and riddles for them to solve. If anything Neverwinter Nights is what you make it. And you know what? It still lives on today, while it's successor was not as popular there are still mods and adventures being made for the first game. That was 10 years ago!
You can keep making your own points on how mods won't be beneficial to you, but let's make this clear. Not everyone wants the same thing. If you find mods and DLCs to be that cumbersome because you lack the time then you are not forced to make use of these editing tools. Instead play all the possible great content the fans will create while you wait for a sequel.

NW is exactly my point. Since when do we have to see a sequel? We had two quick installments plus tons of mods and no new game from the developers for how many years 6-7 years perhaps? I heard recently that they try to make a new game. NW is the exact example I had in mind speaking of developers become indifferent to create a sequel!

HeavyMetalMonk wrote:Is this guy serious?

Seems too stupid, can't be true.

Despite the fact that I have been heavily "attacked" by other users in th forum, about my opinion. I haven't used abusive language until know. It seems, though, that some people cannot do that, even from their first post in this thread. It is a shame!

Greco wrote:

Loktofeit wrote:

Greco wrote:I don't doubt that there are there many people who can make interesting puzzles, but are these people willing to spend so much time? Perhaps you are right and I am wrong. Honestly, do you have any case of MOD/DLC for games other than puzzleless FPS and modern RPGs?

Here's two:

Wizardry 8 - Reforged
Neverwinter Nights - CEP Nexus


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Do they involve any puzzles? I think they are both hasck and slash, quest based rpgs!

You asked specifically about puzzles so I linked two that specifically involve puzzles.


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Greco wrote:

Saice wrote:

Greco wrote:What I said was that it would degrade the desire for a new game. It is completely different from what you imply.

So what you are saying is People would not buy a new game if they have mods?

I think Bethesda might have words with you about how Mods effected the DLC, Expatiations, and Sequels to their games

Please stop trying to interpret what I say. What I say is crystal clear. I didn't say that they wouldn't buy a new game. Hardcore fans will surely buy it. But what about the rest.

Has there been an Elder Scrolls or Fallout sequel that didn't sell well?



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Greco wrote:I heard recently that they try to make a new game. NW is the exact example I had in mind speaking of developers become indifferent to create a sequel!

No offence intended (obviously, we're just having a discussion!) - but have you actually read comments from the developer, that explained why they didn't make a new game? There could be a million and one reasons - and personally I don't feel that user-generated content is the one they'd give. When a game has a large following, that following is always interested in seeing new work from the developer. Sometimes it goes well, sometimes it doesn't - the balance between catering for those who loved the original, and catering for those who wanted large changes and improvements, is a difficult balance to find. However, that again has nothing to do with user-generated content.

Sure, players could say "hey the mods did something great, and you've ignored it with the sequel!". This goes back to what I said previously - if a developer cannot bring new ideas and improvements to the table, especially if mod-makers already achieved it - they really do NOT deserve to sell copies of their new work. The games industry isn't driven by nostalgia and empathy - it's driven by demand and satisfaction. If LoG didn't contain vast improvements over DM and EOTB, it would have sold far, far fewer copies than it did AH did the right thing by modernising where required, but keeping in tact where it made sense - if they cannot repeat that for a sequel and simply release "new content" for LoG 1, they probably don't deserve the same sales success for a second time. That's exactly how it should be

Greco wrote: NW is exactly my point. Since when do we have to see a sequel? We had two quick installments plus tons of mods and no new game from the developers for how many years 6-7 years perhaps? I heard recently that they try to make a new game. NW is the exact example I had in mind speaking of developers become indifferent to create a sequel!

http://www.playneverwinter.com/



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Greco wrote:NW is exactly my point. Since when do we have to see a sequel? We had two quick installments plus tons of mods and no new game from the developers for how many years 6-7 years perhaps? I heard recently that they try to make a new game. NW is the exact example I had in mind speaking of developers become indifferent to create a sequel!

Neverwinter nights was made by Bioware. You know, the guys who have been busy with mass effect, the old republic and being acquired by EA?
Neverwinter nights 2 was made by Obsidian, who seem to be specialized in taking other people's successful games and making more or less successful sequels to them.
I seriously doubt existence of mods has had any negative impact on getting a "new" NWN game out there.

Whatever the reason is (better things to do, licensing issues with TSR/wizards/whoever, market projections), saying that "hey, we can demonstrate that this game has a target audience of X million people" would scare away investors is just silly.

Let's just go over some facts.
- The developers want to support modding / users making more content.
- Some people buy this game solely because of that promise.
- The mods will happen even if the developers wouldn't want it - the reverse engineering is so far already that it's inevitable.
- The more active the community is, the more people will hear of Grimrock, the more people are likely to buy Grimrock2 (or whatever it would be called).

NW is exactly my point. Since when do we have to see a sequel? We had two quick installments plus tons of mods and no new game from the developers for how many years 6-7 years perhaps? I heard recently that they try to make a new game. NW is the exact example I had in mind speaking of developers become indifferent to create a sequel!

Incorrect, they were not two quick "installments". They were two fleshed out expansions which both sold very successfully and had a good many puzzles and good stories (arguably better than the first.) Shadows of Unrentide and Hordes of the Underdark were absolutely wonderful to play. I even replayed them several times over. The installments you speak of were actually three and yes these were smaller:

Neverwinter Nights: Kingmaker in 2004
Neverwinter Nights: ShadowGuard with free Witch's Wake where Shadowguard was actually a fanmade adventure that was good enough for Bioware to sell it.
Neverwinter Nights: Pirates of the Sword Coast in 2005

They started developing Neverwinter Nights 2 in 2004. That's only 2 years after the original was released. Not 6-7 like you mentioned. It was released 2 years later in 2006. The game even received GameSpot's Best Story award for 2006. It had some technical glitches however that put a few people off. Two official expansions and one official adventure pack have been released for the game: Mask of the Betrayer in 2007, Storm of Zehir in 2008, and Mysteries of Westgate in 2009.
Let us make a quick rundown of those then:

Newerwinter Nights plus two expansions plus 3 installments (4 with the free Witch's Wake)
Neverwinter Nights 2 with two expansions and one adventure pack (ie "installment")

So that would make it two full games with a total of 4 expansions and 5 official installments. Then we have the massive content the fanbase made. Not to mention the incredible talents who created their own models and imported them into the game. New monsters, weapons, effects, houses, landscapes, music, sounds, custom player classes, a multitude of puzzles as well.

Mods and DLCs does NOT discourage for possible expansions. If anything it only allows for the possibility of them seeing daylight at all.

Even more, as pointed out above there's a new Neverwinter games coming out as well.

The argument the OP is trying to make is really silly and flies in the face of what's actually observed in the gaming industry. Some of the best selling and longest lasting (still played) games out there are heavily mod-able games.

If the OP just doesn't like mods or something, that's perfectly fine. There's no harm to releasing an editor though, and in fact I think it's very easy to make the argument that releasing modding tools is actually beneficial for a game and it's long term success.

So... you're claiming that innovation is bad?