[Open / Signup] One Room Round Robin 3 - Calling All Modders

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minmay
Posts: 2780
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:24 am

Re: [Open / Signup] One Room Round Robin 3 - Calling All Mod

Post by minmay »

I've uploaded revision 39. I ended up doing a lot more than I mentioned in my post, since nobody else seemed to want to work on the mod at the moment. Most notably, I mostly finished the non-room areas, except for the final boss and Master's Throne since those are Jgwman's territory. The abandoned town still needs some animations, and I'm still not really happy with the Twisted Seal's visuals (but can't think of a way to improve them). Also, the Bardwell Soul Charm still needs a new model, etc.

Duncan's room will still permanently break your save game if you give the book to the wizard, and probably in other places too, so be careful.

It is unfortunate that most of the outdoor room designers chose not to decorate their rooms at all. Especially the cemetery since it's the first thing the player sees in the mod. Perhaps someone else wants to do it for them? (it won't be me)

I did the promised Arena overhaul, with scaling designed to get hard pretty quickly (don't expect to get very far past round 10), and rewards chosen to avoid creating object spam (all consumables or stackables). If slower scaling is desired it's pretty easy to change.

I added a changelog file (VERSION.txt) because 38 revisions with no history is ridiculous. Here are the full contents:

Code: Select all

38 revisions with no dedicated history that I can find...let's fix that.

= Revision 39 (minmay)
======================
- Bug fix: both ice shards spells no longer create range^2/2-range extra shards.

- Bug fix: missing hooks (e.g. PartyComponent.onClickItemSlot()) added to
  hook framework, including onInit and onDraw.* hooks.

- Bug fix: life drain now respects monster flags (can no longer be used to
  damage invulnerable monsters or get xp from CantDie monsters)

- Bug fix: life drain no longer gives xp to farmers and dead champions

- Bug fix: life drain now shows xp text in the correct color

- Bug fix: that one fire spell is no longer missing alpha channel in the 75x75
  icon

- Bug fix: starting equipment is no longer given to disabled champions

- Bug fix: fixed shading on town models (this was a pain).
  Be careful how you export your models! It appears both Skuggasveinn and
  whoever did the town_props models gave every triangle flat shading. This
  resulted in hugely inflated file sizes, slower rendering, and some bad ingame
  appearances too. It also takes forever to fix, so I'd really like to never
  have to do it again.
  I've seen [i]hundreds[/i] of other models with this problem that are floating
  around. I would love to know what pipeline these people are using to convert
  their models, so that I can tell people to never use that pipeline.

  NOTE: Almost all models currently in the mod (other than my own) suffer from
  this problem. The total filesize could be significantly reduced by fixing it, 
  and I wouldn't mind doing so since there are not too many models left.
  However, I won't do that without explicit permission from someone higher up,
  since it means modifying people's room assets.

- Bug fix: dissolved degenerate triangle on sx_house01_wall_window_01.model

- Bug fix: reimplemented urban door: clickable zone for closing is
  more sensible, removed some debugDraws, made the door logic actually work

- Bug fix: shop counters and tables are no longer missing hit sound

- Bug fix: urban_town_bed and urban_town_secret_door no longer have
  minimalSaveState

- Bug fix: static urban_town and town_props models now have staticShadow.

- Bug fix: corrected offset of dungeon_wall_lantern

- Bug fix: removed useless ControllerComponents from minimalSaveState urban town
  walls

- Bug fix: mech_elevator now works correctly at framerates other than exactly 50
  FPS

- Bug fix: removed extra sky object from Town East

- Bug fix: Party can no longer shoot projectile spells off the map in Twisted
  Forest

- Bug fix: urban town pillars are no longer missing automap icons

- Bug fix: Andak Rainor's room now gives a Founder's Orb instead of a meteorite
  ore

- Added some diagnostic tools, see mod_assets/ext/diagnostics/.

- Holding 'J' in the editor preview will now move the party upwards. This hook
  is added in core/scripts/sources/or3_starting_gear_script.lua, if you want to
  remove it.
  I added this to make it faster to decorate outdoor areas and reach platforms
  while testing.

- Added shadow caster models to the backs of beach rock outside walls so that
  they are no longer missing shadows when lit from behind

- Added 2x texcoord scale to sx_urban_town_wall_02 material so that wall texel
  resolution matches the 1024px/3m standard.

- Added spellbook functionality to replace the cumbersome "learn new spells by
  casting them with scrolls in inventory" system and provide an easier place to
  review runes than the traits panel. The party starts with a spellbook and new
  spells are added to it automatically when they are found, so while you still
  need to find spell scrolls before casting them, you don't need to carry around
  the scrolls for any length of time, just pick them up once.
  Because you cannot really display the runepanel animation without using
  SpellScrollItemComponent the implementation of the spellbook is quite hacky
  and is container-based. The player-visible problem with this is that
  "0.0 kg" appears in all the spell descriptions (because they are
  implemented as items with SpellScrollItemComponents).
  The next/previous page icons are placeholders for now, like many of the spell
  icons.

- Added meteorite ore model, texture, and 2D icon. All are my original work.
  The 2D icon is not very good and someone who has an actual visual art
  background could make a much better one.

- Added Sealbreaker model, texture, and 2D icon. These are not my original work,
  they are from opengameart: http://opengameart.org/content/magic-sword
  So it's more of a placeholder, but if nobody wants to make an original model
  at least it's not the longsword model.

- Cleaned up Sealbreaker, removed Channel Power as it did very little and didn't
  actually work anyway (why does nobody read the freaking manual? UPVALUES WILL
  NEVER BE SAVED!)

- (Tentatively) Finished the non-room parts of the catacombs, town outskirts,
  bog, asylum, twisted forest, and dark tower EXCEPT Master's Throne and the
  final boss; finishing those is Jgwman's responsibility. Also didn't make the
  Founder's Orb model/texture/icon, since Isaac indicated a desire to do that,
  and Isaac has actual art experience unlike me :P
  This included editing dialogue in these areas.

- [i]Partially[/i] finished the abandoned town including effects for the Twisted
  Seal (could be improved). There are still some animations I need to make:
    - a real standing idle animation for all 3 ratlings (Kaeli and the guard can
      probably share an animation, rig for all 3 ratlings is the same. The drunk
      ratling needs a leaning or wobbling idle animation instead)
    - the guard pulling the lever
    - Kaeli recoiling when Sealbreaker is made
  (Currently standard assets animations are used as placeholders)
  It also still needs an appropriate ambient track...along with the rest of the
  levels.

- Improved UV maps on town_props models (many areas had extreme stretching and/or
  ridiculously inconsistent texel resolution). They still don't look very good
  because they lack appropriate custom textures...

- Made the ghost remains look a lot more ghostly, and moved their definition
  out of Duncan's room (why was the definition in there in the first place???)
  and into the core with the other "key" objects. Also sort of finished the
  tombstone puzzle.

- Fixed grammar, spelling, and other writing errors in spell descriptions.

- Updated to current version of Firebeam (fixes nonzero elevation bug).

- Changed Elemental Shield to scale resistance power instead of duration with
  elemental skills (1 skill point gives a 50 second +7 shield instead of a
  10 second +35 shield). Duration is still increased by Concentration and
  willpower.

- Wind Rider movement speed bonus is now tied to the condition (so you cannot
  stack it) and proportional to spell power.

- Removed an incorrect comment (and the useless party definition) from
  ext/grimtk/init.lua in an attempt to prevent people from breaking onDrawGui
  hooks *again*.

- Removed the placeholder non-meteor ores since they aren't foreseeably going to
  be used for anything.

- Removed some of the unused code and files in the spell pack (mainly
  enchantments) to make it more readable.

- Removed an earthquake_dust_THOM object with id "" that was far away from any
  reachable area and never used (presumably this was for testing the object and
  someone forgot to delete it). By the way, for future reference, you should
  avoid using the empty string as a GameObject id, it can cause some problems.

- Removed ext/sx_urban_town/models/sx_house01_ceiling_v_snow.model (unused and
  not useful)

- Disabled the unimplemented "new" races/classes/skills, no reason to leave them
  in and the scrollbar on the skill screen was really annoying.

- Renamed old spells_functions.lua backup to spells_functions_old.txt so it
  won't be exported

- Added some utility functions to or3_manager.lua because I needed them

- Replaced the gold key in Dhomochevsky's room with the Rogue Pants (I don't
  generally like to intrude into people's rooms, but a key that doesn't unlock
  anything is just silly)

- Some QOL for testers:
  - consistent starting equipment given for all classes
  - crystal shard of spell scrolls now learns the spells automatically
  - increased speed of dialogue speech scrolling by 50%

- Colour of Magic changes:
  - Removed some outdated pre-rotator comments from lasers.lua
  - Moved bakePuzzle() function in lasers.lua to a .txt file, since it is not
    needed ingame (.txt files are not exported by dungeon editor)
  - Bug fix: help text no longer "randomly" disappears
  - Bug fix: Prismatic Beam distance calculation is now correct
  - Bug fix: Thunderous Trident arcs are no longer created with the wrong facing
  - Disabled console warnings while inside the room, in order to get rid of the
    (meaningless) "game object property not saved" message.
  - Fixed a lame alternate solution to Weave. (It's a REALLY ugly fix, but it
    was the only possible fix that didn't give away the intended solution.)
Note that although this update adds some models and textures, the total size of the mod is actually a little lower because of the filesize reduction from fixing the sx_urban_town models' shading. Fixing the shading on the custom models in rooms will give us even more free space. And the Sealbreaker textures, if not replaced with original ones, could probably be shrunk to 256x256 with no problem.

AndakRainor, you need to optimize your Light spell (or revert to the builtin one if you prefer). Normally I wouldn't complain about something like this, but Light is something that is usually active for most of the game. My computer is pretty powerful, and it still adds about 15 ms to the update time at high power which is frankly terrible. The range gets too high at high power, you don't even disable torch while your spell is active, it looks like you leave dark enabled all the time even when it's not being used, and party lights certainly should not force shadow casting (if you want to add an options menu you could let them toggle Light shadow casting from there, but it is absolutely terrible to force it onto players when it adds so little and hurts performance so much).
Also, Darkness is missing now...? Seems like the party should have a way to deactivate the light spell without waiting out its duration...

You should disable torch and combine its color/brightness with the light spells' when the party has a TorchItem with fuel (torch still updates its color/brightness/offset while disabled) instead of having two active LightComponents at once. Also consider adopting its offset.

Zone effects also have serious performance problems, O(n^3) when the constant cost is so high becomes unmanageable pretty quick and it makes wind rider an incredible pain in the ass to use. I suggest removing the z axis from zone effects altogether, and removing the z check from oracle so it can still detect secrets at different elevations. I'm not convinced that being able to attack monsters above you is good in the first place - there are rooms where there are monsters above you that you obviously are not supposed to be able to attack (THOM's, Azel's, The Cube's). Switching to Taxicab geometry would also improve performance a bit. Another thing you might need to do is only affect a maximum of, say, 8 squares per frame, and spread later iterations out over several frames (this is very inelegant so it is probably better to reduce the very long ranges of spells like wind rider).

Anyway, in the wake of adding new spells, it might be a good idea to gather opinions on core mechanics changes (from everyone, not just orrr3 developers). Here are all the ones I've seen suggested so far that I can remember:

Grant experience for all kills
In the base game the party only gains experience from a monster's death if they were the ones to deal the killing blow. Monsters killed by environmental hazards, telefragging, crushing, other monsters' projectiles, etc. do not award experience.
It is pretty easy in Grimrock 2 to make all monster deaths award experience instead, even environmental ones.
It's also easy to make experience be awarded to dead/petrified champions, if that is also desired.
I personally support this change quite strongly, it's not fun to lose xp, especially as a punishment for using the environment to your advantage.

Spell learning
With the addition of the spell pack came a big core mechanical change: the scroll for a spell must be found before you can cast it.
Should this be kept, or should it work like the base game where you can cast anything you meet the requirements for (and know/guess the runes to)?
And if it isn't kept, should the spellbook start the game with all spells in it, so the player can see all the spells immediately?
I don't really have an opinion on either of these one way or the other.
Currently the party starts with the crystal shard of spell scrolls since most of the spell scrolls haven't been placed.

Fast travel
As in Isle of Nex and ORRR2, it might be good to include an option to quickly travel between the areas. In this mod the distances between areas are quite short so this may not be necessary; if it is, there's an implementation of fast travel in MinAssets, just saying.

Toorum (or other special solo character(s)) mode
ORRR2 had specific support for Toorum mode (e.g. the lines at the beginning are different), so it might be a nice nod to include it in ORRR3. On the other hand, this means puzzles dependent on the default party's slow movement would be broken. But there are no such puzzles in the mod at the moment as far as I know, and if Wind Rider's movement speed bonus is kept, that will break any such puzzles too anyway. It's also additional complexity from a player perspective.
If desired, it's easy to add. Alternatively, go all out and have Toorum, Kilhagan, and Jonandar modes. (hm, these games have a distinct lack of non-male characters...)

Grant extra experience for parties with fewer than 4 champions
Self-explanatory. I don't have an opinion either way on this. I will, however, point out that this will not result in exact skill point parity because experience cost increases with level - and not very smoothly.

Keyboard support for attacking & spellcasting
It's often suggested to allow the player to bind keys to champions' attacks and spells instead of making them use the mouse. This is hardest to implement for secondary attacks (because of the delay and special graphical effects). Simply letting the player pick 8 hotkeys for the 4 champions' hands is an easy option that still makes a big difference.
Closely related, an option for "unbuffered" movement (moving/turning only occurs if you are holding the key and does not suffer key repeat delay) could also be added, as many players have complained about the default movement scheme being clunky/unintuitive. I have already implemented this for another mod and it'd be quite easy to port over to this one.

More realistic item weights
Most of the weapons and armor in the standard assets are far heavier than they are in real life, especially the swords and plate armor. It's easy to change them to be more realistic if that is desired.

If anyone has an opinion on any of these, please share it!



Item balancing
I added some diagnostic tools to the mod as an extension (VERY easy to disable for release). This includes some functions to help with item balancing. See ext/diagnostics/diagnostics_script.lua if you dare.
party.diagnostics.computeDamage() will try to compute the damage output of a champion with a weapon. This is currently unfinished, and doesn't account for monster protection/evasion yet (it assumes a frozen/sleeping monster with protection 0) but should give accurate results otherwise, unless someone added an onComputeCooldown hook that I didn't notice (unlikely).
There is also party.diagnostics.testDamage() which tests the weapon against an actual monster, assuring accurate results, but it needs to do many trials (taking a while and killing the sound system) and doesn't work well for non-melee attacks at the moment (can be fixed, I'm just lazy).
Finally, party.diagnostics.rankWeapons() will use computeDamage() to get the champion's DPS with all the weapons defined in the mod. This isn't perfect by any means, as it fails to account for Dragonbreath Revolver reloads, crit chance/multiplier modifiers on weapons, and the like.
None of these functions work with repeating actions yet unfortunately.

Here is the current rankDamage() output for a non-rogue champion with Aggressive, all relevant skills at 5 (so a crit chance of 20%), and 21 strength/dexterity/willpower, *without backstabbing*:

Code: Select all

Weapons from least to most damage per second:
3.60	Flintlock
5.30	Sling
5.41	Lightning Rod
6.36	Serpent Staff
6.36	Torch
6.36	Everburning Torch
6.57	Blowpipe
7.00	Lightning Bomb (Dual)
7.00	Fire Bomb (Dual)
7.00	Poison Bomb (Dual)
7.00	Frost Bomb (Dual)
7.42	Wand of Fear
7.95	Arquebus
8.06	Bone Club
8.69	Repeater
8.90	Cudgel
10.81	Orb of Vilson (Dual)
11.13	A Rusty Longsword (Dual)
11.13	Short Bow
11.59	Skullcleave
11.70	Legionary Spear (Dual)
11.87	Branch (Dual)
12.08	Rock (Dual)
12.08	Rock (Dual)
12.08	Rock (Dual)
12.08	Rock (Dual)
12.08	Rock (Dual)
12.15	Mark Knoffer
12.15	Crookhorn Longbow
12.48	Battle Axe
12.72	Quarterstaff (Dual)
12.72	Crossbow
13.00	Hand Axe (Dual)
13.00	Baton (Dual)
13.29	Warhammer
13.85	Lightning Bow
14.13	Machete (Dual)
14.20	Two-handed Sword
14.63	Maul
14.63	Dart (Dual)
14.63	Sleep Dart (Dual)
14.70	Pickaxe (Dual)
14.76	Zarchton Harpoon (Dual)
14.79	Spiked Club
15.01	Flail
15.08	Vorpal Blade (Dual)
15.45	Great Axe
16.09	Rapier (Dual)
16.11	Morning Star
16.72	Tribal Spear (Dual)
17.49	Repeating Crossbow [Should be 52.47]
17.60	Hand Cannon
17.81	Poleaxe
18.09	Venomfang Pick (Dual)
18.13	Quality made Pickaxe
18.44	Throwing Knife (Dual)
19.33	Dagger (Dual)
19.50	Backbiter (Dual)
20.28	Sealbreaker (Dual)
20.28	Longsword (Dual)
20.28	Fireblade (Dual)
20.28	Lightning Blade (Dual)
20.72	Scythe [Should be 24.00]
20.90	Ax
21.20	Dragonbreath Revolver [Should be 18.17, and has additional weaknesses]
21.77	Sabre [Should be 24.39]
22.26	Ethereal Blade (Dual)
23.21	Guardian Blade
23.40	Venom Edge (Dual)
23.91	Throwing Axe (Dual)
24.43	Bane
25.69	Ancient Claymore
26.89	Shuriken (Dual)
27.26	Manabound Rifle
28.10	Sickle Sword (Dual)
30.15	Fist Dagger (Dual)
30.16	Serpent Blade (Dual)
30.25	Meteor Hammer
30.45	Cutlass (Dual)
30.68	Boneblade (Dual)
31.16	Ghost Blade (Dual)
31.80	Thunderous Trident
32.22	Master's Blade (Dual)
32.25	Moonblade (Dual)
32.44	Iridosmine Rod
37.25	Assassin's Dagger (Dual)
39.07	Ruin (Dual) [Should be 43.78]
WARNING: This function does not yet account for protection, evasion, or crit chance/mult bonuses on weapons.
This doesn't really reveal anything we didn't know already: in the standard assets, light weapons are far better than heavy weapons, having better dps even before backstabbing (and backstabbing is really really easy and fast and optimal if you understand the AI, against most monsters!). Throwing weapons are far better than missile weapons until Repeating Crossbow, even before accounting for strength being easier to get than dexterity. Firearms are disgustingly bad.

I suggest that, when all the rooms are done, a single person should go through and redistribute the items to be balanced and avoid duplicate items. Some changes to monsters will probably be needed too. I don't think it's practical to have every room designer do it for themselves. Of course items that are important to the theme of the room, like the bear items in The Cube's room, would be left untouched.
The only weapons that are too powerful for the mod altogether at the moment are Ruin (whoops) and possibly Assassin's Dagger and Repeating Crossbow. Every other melee weapon is inferior to moonblade+fist dagger or boneblade+cutlass, and every other ranged weapon is inferior to shuriken. These weapons are easy to obtain in Isle of Nex.
Remember, repeating crossbow does NOT actually have better damage output than light weapons, because backstabbing exists. It may be too powerful for a ranged weapon anyway, though. If that turns out to be the case I'll just increase the cooldown or something.

Some stronger heavy weapons, firearms, and missile weapons are necessary unless light weapons and throwing weapons are nerfed dramatically. Remember that meteor hammer and iridosmine rod are far inferior to many of the light weapons below them because they can't backstab. Firearms/missiles/throwing having lower damage than light and heavy weapons are fine, since they have the advantage of being ranged, but missile weapons and firearms having much lower damage than throwing is not, and heavy weapons should surely be significantly more damaging than throwing (which they aren't right now).

I suggest changing the stats on the standard firearms because all three of flintlock, arquebus, and repeater are too bad to even bother placing after Town East - even with a strength of 10, their DPS is worse than Skullcleave's at skill 5. Six firearms might not be enough for a mod of this size; there are six reward tiers (catacombs, town east, bog, asylum, forest, tower) so that's just one firearm per area. The number of throwing weapons is also small (should I add John Wordsworth's kunai? Grimrock 1's throwing knives?) but at least you can transition between those gradually (area with many knives and no shuriken -> area with some knives and a few shuriken -> area with lots of shuriken and no knives).

For missile weapons, items between lightning bow and repeating crossbow are desperately needed.

Heavy weapons have a broad and decently-filled damage range already, the range is just numerically inferior to light weapons' range, and the slightly higher tech requirement for light weapons doesn't make up for it when they get triple damage against most monsters, in fact light weapons typically get more damage per hit with backstabs, and when you add in the dual-wielding and shorter cooldown...
Adjusting standard heavy weapon stats up would work, new weapons would be even better.

I can easily prepare an optimized pack of existing custom weapons (Dungeon Master Resource weapons + MinAssets weapons + various Grimrock 1 weapons) if there's interest in that. It would look similar to this.

My target DPS levels would be:
Light weapons: similar to Isle of Nex (we are already mostly at this point)
Heavy weapons: 1.5x dual-wielded non-backstabbing light weapons (heavy weapons need to be greatly buffed)
Missile weapons, throwing weapons, firearms (all at 5 skill): 0.66x the newly buffed heavy weapons (missile weapons and firearms need to be greatly buffed, throwing could be buffed a little)

This leaves light weapons the best by far against easily-backstabbable enemies, but also makes heavy weapons significantly better against enemies that you do not backstab. Ranged attacks should do somewhat less damage than melee attacks, since they have the advantage of being ranged; ammunition is not really a big drawback unless we greatly reduce its quantity. I do not think firearms should have less DPS than other ranged attacks. They have the advantage of being instant, yes, but this advantage is REALLY small, and even a disadvantage in some cases (attacking monsters as they move into line-of-fire).

The overall difficulty of the mod should not be reduced by these changes, since we aren't actually increasing the damage output of an optimal party, we're just making it so that parties can use firearms/heavy/missile weapons and still have a decent claim to being optimal, instead of 100% light weapons being clearly the best.

Something may need to be done about rage potions. The ability to stack dozens of rage potions to trivialize a single fight might be fine, however, because stacking rage potions also increases the duration of the effect, you can keep your massively increased damage for ages (each point of strength lasts 8 seconds). Similarly, bear form can be maintained for an extremely long time by taking advantage of how many ways there are to recover energy (potions + crystals + some spells pack spells now).

Of course ultimately this decision will come down to whoever does the item/monster overhaul. I'm going to ask that someone else do that, because I'm selfish and want there to be SOME surprises for me in the final product.

Saving performance
To get a complete breakdown of objects in the dungeon:
1. Make sure you are running the game from a terminal so there's a convenient place for stdout to go
2. Make sure your mouse item slot is free
3. Call party.diagnostics.dungeonReport()
I've actually disabled the "unsafe minimal save state" warning because it just produces spam right now (some objects in my room use components that typically do not make sense with minimalSaveState, but do in the case of my over-optimized room).
In-game, you'll get a note telling you the total number of objects and components in the dungeon, split by the two save state categories. It looks like this:
Image
In stdout, you'll get all objects and components in the dungeon sorted by save state and then frequency. It looks like this:
SpoilerShow

Code: Select all

================================================================================
Full save state objects:
================================================================================
259	castle_bridge_grating
241	floor_trigger
219	note
139	castle_bridge
121	castle_secret_door
120	script_entity
114	ladder
112	at_soundArrowSocket
110	jg_bookshelf
101	invisible_teleporter
99	invisible_platform
99	castle_alcove
91	forest_bridge
90	dungeon_alcove
89	torch
88	diar_castle_railing
85	teleporter
79	pushable_block_floor
77	mine_door_spear
74	dungeon_secret_door
73	dungeon_secret_door_THOM
73	magic_bridge
71	floor_spike_trap
66	ar_castle_bridge_grating_high
65	timer
61	dungeon_door_portcullis
60	torch_holder
60	blocker
57	dungeon_wall_text
55	spawner
50	diar_puzzle_floor
49	secret
48	counter
44	ar_castle_pit_trapdoor
44	dungeon_wall_lantern
43	castle_pillar_light
41	castle_pillar_candle_holder
37	tp_bookshelf_01
36	ladder_metal
36	force_field
35	dungeon_pillar_lantern_01
35	invisible_wall
34	wall_button
33	castle_torch_holder
33	blooddrop_cap
32	tp_wall_shelf_01
32	xan_2shard
30	bw_frozen_tick_plate
29	chest
29	tomb_wall_grating
28	arena_bounds
28	tombstone
27	xan_1shard
27	lever
27	tp_bed_01
26	dungeon_wall_text_long
26	etherweed
26	forest_wall_text_long
26	mine_ceiling_shaft
22	rock
22	castle_door_portcullis
21	tp_wooden_table_01
21	forest_ruins_secret_door
21	pullchain
20	pushable_block_floor_trigger
20	xan_swamp_floor_ph
19	ladder_metal_4m
19	el_script_auto_floor_trigger
19	scroll
18	tp_wooden_shelves_01
18	arrow
18	skuggs_forest_chasm
17	invisible_rocky_wall
17	urban_town_door_openfront
17	urban_town_door_back
17	urban_town_door_wooden
17	potion_healing
17	falconskyre
16	at_casle_wallpillar_left
16	sound
16	dungeon_fire_pit
16	forest_wall_text_short
16	sack
16	castle_wall_cloth
16	at_casle_wallpillar_right
15	diar_mine_door_invisible
15	dungeon_pressure_plate_dirt_floor
14	or3_town_wall_text_short
14	castle_door_button
14	castle_ceiling_light
14	dungeon_secret_button_small
14	tp_wooden_shelves_02
14	bread
14	cheese
14	diar_mine_door_spear
14	receptor
14	dungeon_stairs_up
13	mudwort
13	small_fish
13	dungeon_ice_pit
13	at_ceremonial_arrow
13	castle_ceiling_lantern
12	blackmoss
12	forest_bridge_end
12	door_pullchain
12	pitroot_bread
11	beach_wall_button
11	forest_exit
11	castle_wall_button
11	dungeon_door_iron
11	throwing_axe
10	dungeon_pit_trapdoor
10	potion_greater_healing
10	beach_lever
10	ceiling_witch_lantern
10	lock_pick
10	ar_magic_bridge_moving
10	spider
10	mine_ceiling_lantern
10	altar
9	or3_ore_meteorite
9	barrel_crate_block
9	urban_town_fence_01
9	throwing_knife
9	castle_door_wood
9	mine_lever
9	pellet_box
9	ladder_THOM_noAutomap
9	dc_rock_red_used
9	boss_fight
8	forest_altar
8	forest_heightmap
8	cannon_ball
8	twigroot
8	eyctopus
8	pushable_block
8	tiny_spider
8	forest_stairs_down
8	water_surface_underground
8	tomb_wall_lever
7	herder
7	sx_barrel_chest_02
7	beach_thicket_01
7	potion_energy
7	healing_crystal
7	skull
7	forest_lantern
7	borra
7	pedestal
7	potion_cure_poison
7	castle_wall_text
7	mine_support_pillar_lantern_01
7	dungeon_door_iron_barred
7	castle_wall_lever
6	cemetry_floor_fog_01
6	undead
6	diar_cryptFog
6	forest_underwater_plankton
6	boiled_beetle
6	thecube_destruction_orb
6	dungeon_pressure_plate
6	horned_fruit
6	skeleton_archer
6	dungeon_secret_button_large
6	xan_door_spear
6	dc_floor_trigger
6	or3_spellbook_desc
6	fire_bomb
6	castle_wall_text_long
6	dc_pushable_block_floor
6	dc_rock_red
6	terracotta_jars_block
6	forest_pit_fog
6	rotten_pitroot_bread
6	skeleton_trooper1
6	snail_slice
5	castle_pit_trapdoor
5	thecube_forest_chasm_bomb
5	herder_small
5	mosquito_swarm
5	potion_dexterity
5	frost_bomb
5	potion_resurrection
5	herder_cap
5	mine_pressure_plate
5	mine_wall_text
5	mine_statue_wall
5	crystal_shard_healing
5	castle_pressure_plate
5	power_gem_item_THOM
5	bone_club
5	wooden_box
5	castle_entrance_door
5	mine_support_wall_button
5	jg_receptor
5	dungeon_stairs_down
5	dc_town_stone_counter
5	dc_pillar_button
5	castle_door_frame
5	mine_alcove_support
5	forest_thorn_blocker
5	swamp_toad
5	mummy3
4	ar_fire_ogre
4	ratling2
4	tp_shop_counter_01
4	mine_ceiling_pit_light
4	dungeon_door_wooden
4	tomb_door_stone
4	potion_rage
4	silver_roach
4	potion_bear_form
4	dc_forest_underwater_bubbles
4	beach_lock_round
4	potion_greater_energy
4	tower_pit_loop
4	zarchton
4	shock_bomb
4	rat_shank
4	catacomb_altar_01
4	shuriken
4	castle_stairs_down
4	shovel
4	tattered_shirt
4	skuggs_pillar_lantern_01
4	sausage
4	poison_bomb
4	green_slime
4	beacon_earth
4	water_surface
4	xeloroid
4	forest_ogre
4	ar_castle_bridge_grating_moving
4	leather_pants
4	tp_shop_counter_01_part02
4	tome_wisdom
4	barrel_crate_block_damaged
4	dc_power_gem
4	ar_water_slime
3	tiny_rat
3	water_flask
3	shrakk_torr
3	potion_willpower
3	baked_maggot
3	rat_swarm
3	essence_air
3	mine_spell_receptor
3	dungeon_door_stone
3	ratling3
3	trickster
3	rope
3	peasant_breeches
3	machete
3	tome_health
3	skull_lock
3	tomb_door_portcullis
3	spider_eggs
3	flarefeather_cap
3	letter
3	mole_jerky
3	mine_alcove
3	mummy
3	beach_door_portcullis
3	potion_vitality
3	potion_shield
3	potion_strength
3	mummy1
3	herder_big
3	turtle_eggs
3	flintlock
3	castle_wall_cloth_torn
3	forest_chasm
3	dc_rock_green_used
3	prison_cage
3	crystal_flower
3	fjeld_warg2
3	mummy2
3	skeleton_trooper2
3	fjeld_warg1
3	terracotta_jars_block_damaged
2	storm_amulet
2	crystal_shard_protection
2	sabre
2	at_hunger_ledge_alcove
2	mine_bridge_01
2	tribal_shield
2	dc_pushable_block_floor_invisible
2	torn_breeches
2	or3_ghost_remains
2	rat_swarm_shank
2	ice_guardian
2	leather_boots
2	xan_chamber_key
2	el_rust_long_sword_01
2	bear_skull_helm
2	potion_poison
2	wyvern
2	mine_stairs_up
2	pickaxe
2	zarchton_diving
2	fire_trap_rune
2	ar_teleport_party
2	peasant_cap
2	at_skeleton_ceremonial_archer
2	mine_spell_receptor_support
2	sx_winter_rope_ladder
2	castle_stairs_up
2	pearl_shield
2	blueberry_pie
2	or3_power_crystal
2	magic_arch_THOM
2	archmage_scapular
2	mine_secret_door
2	dark_acolyte
2	crystal_boots
2	forest_pressure_plate
2	dc_dungeon_wall_grating
2	jg_experiment_minion
2	bear_pelt
2	mine_spell_launcher_support
2	twigroot_dormant
2	silk_hose
2	crystal_gauntlets
2	medusa
2	sling
2	crystal_shield
2	forest_underwater_bubbles
2	mortar
2	flask
2	dummy_light
2	potion_cure_disease
2	skuggs_invisible_platform
2	el_statue_fire_light
2	long_sword
2	ar_castle_ceiling_light_moving
2	skuggs_magic_door
2	ethereal_blade
2	dart
2	tome_energy
2	lock
2	thecube_minewalltextclickfunction
2	leather_gloves
2	beacon_air
2	peasant_tunic
2	smoked_bass
2	iron_key
2	lightning_blade
2	skeleton_trooper
2	sandals
2	ratling1
2	lock_round
2	forest_day_sky
2	ethereal_tombstone
2	at_castle_wall_cloth
2	lever_ruins
2	tome_fire
2	revolver
1	spider_eggs_broken
1	bearclaw_gauntlets
1	spidersilk_cloak
1	dc_invisible_wall_blocker
1	robin
1	rogue_boots
1	ancient_claymore
1	xan_dungeon_secret_door_centered
1	or3_anvil
1	spirit_crook
1	nomad_boots
1	jg_gower_ring
1	ghost_THOM
1	fist_dagger
1	spore_mushroom
1	thecube_pickaxe
1	xan_dungeon_bridge
1	swamp_water
1	fire_torc
1	at_armorrack
1	nomad_mittens
1	turtle_diving
1	embalmers_robe
1	xan_wall_button_5
1	red_gem
1	or3_ratling_smith
1	grimtk
1	castle_outside_stairs_up
1	lurker_vest
1	dc_beacon_balance
1	giant_snake
1	toad_tongue
1	castle_arena_stairs_down
1	ring_gauntlets
1	skuggs_star_key
1	conjurers_hat
1	battle_axe
1	crab
1	xan_wall_button_2
1	dc_crab_dancer
1	skuggs_crystal_key_socket_green
1	dc_water_surface_underground
1	mausoleum_stairs_down
1	at_knight_sarcophagus
1	min_rifle
1	morning_star
1	el_grvyrd1_key
1	mt_contempt
1	el_graveyard_gate_key_1
1	beach_puzzle_statue
1	shoes
1	beach_lock_ornate
1	venom_edge
1	dagger
1	terracotta_jars_block_broken
1	sand_warg
1	rapier
1	nergal_amulet
1	huntsman_cloak
1	or3_twisted_forest_sky
1	potion_speed
1	xan_otis_guardian
1	sx_house_bookshelf_secret_door_01
1	beacon_water
1	turtle
1	archmage_loafers
1	bw_note
1	cuirass_valor
1	xan_blinding_boots
1	shaman_staff
1	mirror_cuisse
1	party
1	wizard_clone
1	xan_icy_golem
1	receptor_ruins
1	scaled_cloak
1	swamp_sky
1	repeater
1	plate_greaves
1	ar_acid_elemental
1	crystal_helmet
1	dc_ratling3
1	min_progress_fill
1	skuggs_gearsping_clockwise_idle
1	xan_wall_button_3
1	xan_exit_key
1	jeweled_scepter
1	mirror_chestplate
1	scythe
1	mine_lock
1	min_cap
1	lightning_bow
1	thecube_ratling
1	xan_chaos_soulgem
1	plate_cuirass
1	or3_spellbook_storageitem
1	swamp_dungeon_fog
1	xan_garth_guardian
1	or3_ratling_guard
1	at_dm_portrait_sound
1	warhammer
1	xan_fire_jammer
1	fjeld_warg
1	castle_pit
1	diviner_cloak
1	crystal_greaves
1	tome_leadership
1	lizard_stick
1	min_orb
1	mine_lever_corner
1	mine_moss_stairs_up
1	short_bow
1	forest_exit_underwater
1	wand_fear
1	blue_gem
1	skuggs_gearsping_counter_clockwise_river
1	longbow
1	quarterstaff
1	xan_wall_button_4
1	frostbite_necklace
1	min_rod
1	jg_uggardian_commander
1	xan_worker_helmet
1	quarrel
1	air_elemental
1	spirit_mirror_pendant
1	crows_flying
1	archmage_mantle
1	skeleton_commander
1	jg_binding_staff
1	hand_cannon
1	thecube_essence_finder
1	mt_betrayal
1	min_entrance
1	archmage_hat
1	thecube_mine_key
1	rogue_vest
1	hand_axe
1	acolyte_staff
1	bracelet_tirin
1	mine_pit_trapdoor
1	timepiece
1	crystal_cuirass
1	ar_mage_blade
1	figure_crowern
1	ar_spawner_script
1	doublet
1	sleep_dart
1	assassin_dagger
1	xan_skiff_round_key
1	min_occluder
1	min_menu_credits
1	min_menu
1	thecube_castlewalltextclickfunction
1	crystal_shard_scrolls
1	loincloth
1	forest_ruins_secret_button_big
1	branch
1	min_necklace
1	andak_pendant
1	jg_glass_bell
1	jg_experiment_leader
1	horn
1	fjeld_warg_meat
1	or3_spellbook
1	crystal_shard_recharging
1	helmet_valor
1	mine_door_camo
1	min_ruin
1	skuggs_star_lock
1	rogue_hood
1	at_weaponrack
1	tattered_cloak
1	skuggs_enclave_wizard_scriptable_red
1	min_xbow
1	heavy_shield
1	skullcleave
1	jg_tome_forgotten
1	buckler
1	leather_cap
1	skuggs_red_crystal
1	jg_tome_memories
1	skuggs_driveshaft_river
1	castle_wall_grating_ornament
1	ar_guardian_blade
1	skuggs_waterwheel
1	at_swordrack
1	beach_secret_door
1	full_helmet
1	dc_pushable_rock
1	forest_pit_trapdoor
1	xan_orb_o_cheats
1	mt_oni
1	cemetery_sky
1	dm_vorpalblade_THOM
1	plate_gauntlets
1	skuggs_crystal_key_socket_red
1	venomfang_pick
1	forest_underwater_pressure_plate
1	improved_dark_acolyte
1	min_shop_occluder
1	mt_dishonor
1	pointy_shoes
1	sickle_sword
1	gauntlets_valor
1	mirror_greaves
1	min_sceptre
1	skuggs_gearsping_counter_clockwise_socket
1	catacomb_altar_02
1	green_gem
1	round_shield
1	embalmers_headpiece
1	castle_arena_sky
1	leather_brigandine
1	skuggs_skull_key
1	or3_cemetery_round_key
1	crystal_amulet
1	xan_wall_button_1
1	warg_meat
1	lock_ornate
1	tribal_spear
1	minlib
1	or3_town_wall_text_long
1	ar_sulfide_elemental
1	skuggs_enclave_wizard_scriptable_green
1	xan_ice_jammer
1	dc_rock_green
1	ring_greaves
1	skuggs_driveshaft
1	tome_water
1	bronze_brace
1	crowern
1	cuisse_valor
1	el_quest_item_gate_key_3
1	min_trident
1	gold_key
1	or3_ratling_loiterer
1	embalmers_boots
1	rogue_gloves
1	ar_thunder_elemental
1	mine_floor_pit_light
1	ax
1	ar_blizzard_elemental
1	xan_magma_golem
1	skuggs_wizard_gear
1	compass
1	or3_asylum_sky
1	forest_cage_01
================================================================================
Minimal save state objects:
================================================================================
4075	dungeon_pillar
2475	dungeon_wall_01
2449	castle_pillar_01
1485	dungeon_floor_dirt_01
1172	dungeon_wall_02
953	castle_floor_01
755	dungeon_floor_01
678	catacomb_ceiling
672	swamp_grass_01
614	forest_pillar_01
603	castle_wall_01
556	castle_wall_03
549	castle_wall_02
470	dungeon_ceiling_0000
441	forest_oak_cluster
409	castle_ceiling_0000
371	forest_elevation_edge
362	cemetery_pillar_01
324	forest_wall_01
297	forest_hedge_01
270	forest_heather
263	mine_floor_01
259	forest_wall_02
230	swamp_oak_cluster
218	mine_elevation_edge
213	urban_town_wall_01
199	cemetery_wall_01
197	urban_town_wall_pillar
196	urban_town_ceiling_v
191	forest_spruce_01
189	forest_border_rocks_01
183	urban_town_wooden_ceiling
161	mine_moss_wall_01
160	urban_town_pillar
157	mine_moss_ceiling_02
155	mine_support_pillar_01
153	cemetery_fence_01
143	mine_moss_ceiling_01
143	dungeon_ceiling_0010
140	mine_moss_ceiling_03
130	mine_floor_sandpile
130	dungeon_ceiling_0100
126	castle_wall_outside_01
125	dungeon_ceiling_1000
124	mine_ceiling_01
120	dungeon_ceiling_0001
119	mine_wall_01
118	mine_ceiling_02
116	urban_town_ceiling_v_end
112	dungeon_wall_drain
103	forest_oak
103	swamp_oak_cluster_polypore
87	forest_spruce_small_01
85	castle_ceiling_1000
81	forest_willow_wall
81	catacomb_ceiling_THOM
81	castle_ceiling_0010
79	urban_town_wall_03
75	dungeon_wall_grating
73	urban_town_pillar_wooden_2H
70	forest_spruce_smallest_01
69	forest_willow
66	castle_ceiling_0001
66	castle_ceiling_0100
64	urban_town_pillar_wooden
64	mine_ceiling_shaft_edge
61	mine_moss_pillar_01
60	castle_wall_arch
57	urban_town_wall_03_elev
57	dungeon_pillar_high
56	forest_grass_01
54	forest_spruce_sapling_01
54	mine_support_beam_01
53	urban_town_wall_02
53	dungeon_ceiling_0011
52	mine_moss_pillar_03
52	mine_pillar_crystal
52	mine_support_wall_01
51	dungeon_ceiling_1100
50	forest_ruins_wall_01
48	dungeon_ceiling_1001
47	dungeon_ceiling_1010
47	dungeon_ceiling_0110
46	forest_spruce_sapling_01_wall
46	castle_ceiling_shaft_0000
45	dungeon_ceiling_0101
45	floor_dirt
45	skuggs_dungeon_wall_01
44	ar_castle_pit
43	castle_ceiling_1010
43	mine_moss_pillar_02
43	urban_town_ceiling_stonesupport
41	urban_town_wall_04_elev
39	forest_oak_cluster_wall
38	skuggs_black_ground_01
37	castle_ceiling_0101
36	min_marble_wall_eternal
36	min_pillar_eternal
36	beach_rock_pillar_01
36	diar_forest_ruins_wall
35	mine_support_wall_02
34	dungeon_ceiling
30	skuggs_forest_chasm_edge
30	forest_spruce_sapling_02
29	cemetery_arch_01
29	dungeon_wall_ivy_01
29	xan_floor_corpse_bones_only
29	castle_ceiling_1001
28	mine_pillar_02
27	diar_castle_pillar_3m
27	castle_ceiling_1100
26	mine_pillar_hatless_01
26	castle_ceiling_0011
26	mine_pillar_01
25	mine_support_ceiling_01
25	castle_ceiling_0110
25	forest_oak_cluster_pillar
25	forest_old_oak
25	daemon_head
24	forest_plant_cluster_01
24	dungeon_wall_overlay_grating_01
23	forest_willow_pillar
22	forest_spruce_small_01_wall
22	mine_pillar_03
22	dungeon_wall_broken_02
21	border_e3_c
21	dungeon_pillar_chains_01
21	forest_blocker_stone
20	tomb_wall_01
20	dungeon_wall_broken_01
20	beach_rock_outside_wall_high
20	dungeon_wall_height_difference
20	forest_spruce_sapling_02_wall
19	or3_town_basement_wall
19	border_e2_c
19	swamp_heather
19	dungeon_wall_ivy_02
19	dungeon_wall_chains_hooks_01
18	forest_spruce_01_wall
18	or3_town_basement_ceiling
18	tomb_pillar
18	dungeon_wall_chains_02
17	beach_rock_3x2
17	swamp_mushrooms_01
17	border_e0_c
17	beach_rock_3x1
16	dungeon_wall_chains_01
16	forest_spruce_small_01_pillar
16	el_floor_grave_pile_01
15	skuggs_forest_ground_01
14	diar_castle_pillar_5m
14	skuggs_forest_elevation_edge
14	forest_seaweed_floor_01
13	castle_wall_bookshelf_01
13	beach_rock_wall_01
13	castle_wall_bookshelf_02
12	forest_spruce_smallest_01_wall
12	urban_town_wall_window_01
12	castle_double_wall
12	beach_rock_wall_02
12	dungeon_ceiling_1110
12	swamp_mushroom_cluster
12	forest_spruce_sapling_01_pillar
12	dungeon_ceiling_shaft
12	beach_rock_arch_small
12	forest_spruce_01_pillar
11	border_e2
11	forest_ruins_wall_end_left
11	beach_rock_2x1
11	border_e2_r1_c
11	dungeon_pillar_top
11	forest_ruins_wall_ivy_01
11	sx_bookshelf_deco
10	dungeon_ceiling_1011
10	catacomb_alcove_02
10	custom_willow
10	forest_ruins_wall_02
10	forest_ruins_wall_end_right
10	skuggs_forest_chasm_corner
10	prison_bench
9	border_e3_r1_c
9	dungeon_ceiling_shaft_0000
9	dungeon_ceiling_1111
9	floor_corpse
9	border_e2_l1_c
9	beach_rock_1x1
9	urban_town_door_frame
9	urban_town_invisible_wall
9	dungeon_ceiling_1101
9	border_e1
9	beach_rock_wall_04
8	forest_chasm_edge
8	border_e3_l1_c
8	forest_oak_obstacle
8	forest_ruins_pillar_01
8	castle_wall_outside_corner_01
8	forest_spruce_smallest_01_pillar
8	border_e1_c
8	forest_ruins_dome
8	swamp_oak
7	forest_oak_wall
7	forest_ruins_arch
7	forest_ruins_ground_tile_02
7	catacomb_alcove_03
7	catacomb_alcove_01
7	mine_cave_in
6	mine_ceiling_roots_01
6	skuggs_forest_elevation_edge_overhang
6	beach_rock_spire
6	border_e3
6	diar_forest_elevation_ledge
6	forest_spruce_sapling_02_pillar
6	dungeon_support_ceiling_01
6	border_e2_l1
6	forest_seaweed_floor_02
6	min_marker
5	dungeon_ceiling_0111
5	diar_castle_pillar_3m_u1
5	forest_chasm_corner
4	urban_town_wall_window_02
4	diar_castle_pillar_5m_flat
4	swamp_dead_tree
4	swamp_wall_ivy_01
4	snake_statue
4	swamp_wall_ivy_02
4	dungeon_cave_in
4	forest_elevation_edge_overhang
4	catacomb_alcove_candle_02
4	min_marker_wall
4	min_shop_exitbutton
4	diar_castle_pillar_5m_2u
4	catacomb_alcove_candle_01
4	beach_rock_arch
4	min_invwall_minimal
4	castle_gate_outside
4	forest_oak_trunk
3	forest_ruins_pillar_fallen
3	mine_spell_launcher
3	el_tree_stump_patch_socket_txt
3	aan_queen_crown_big
3	forest_oak_stump
3	border_e1_r1_c
3	xan_firewall
3	el_tree_stump_patch_socket
3	xan_icewall
3	urban_town_door_frame_03
3	dungeon_pillar_chains_02
3	forest_seaweed_wall_decoration_01
3	castle_ceiling_0111
3	urban_town_wall_04
3	beach_rock_outside_wall_low
3	skuggs_forest_ruins_wall_ivy_01
2	swamp_heather_low
2	skuggs_forest_chasm_edge_fix
2	skuggs_forest_bridge_end
2	forest_ruins_ground_tile_01
2	dungeon_wall_open
2	border_e0_r1_c
2	forest_statue_3
2	mine_rockpile_01
2	forest_seaweed_wall_decoration_02
2	urban_town_door_frame_02
2	skuggs_mine_ceiling_01
2	border_e4
2	forest_spruce_sapling_pillar
2	skuggs_dungeon_ground_01
2	border_e2_r1
2	mine_wooden_support_wall
2	tp_shop_counter_wine_barrel
2	skuggs_forest_bridge
2	mine_counterweight_chains
2	border_e1_l1_c
2	forest_bridge_middle_pillar
2	or3_town_stairs_down
2	min_marble_wall
2	castle_ceiling_shaft
2	mine_moss_rockpile_01
2	castle_ceiling_1101
2	grass_planes_01
2	castle_pillar_end
2	forest_ruins_wall_ivy_02
1	twisted_forest_seal_mini
1	catacomb_ceiling_shaft
1	forest_statue_pillar_01
1	diar_cemetery_fence
1	mine_moss_cave_in
1	border_e4_r1_c
1	min_shoplabel_72
1	dungeon_pillar_wall
1	min_shoplabel_48
1	beach_rock_blocker_01
1	twisted_forest_seal_towneast
1	forest_ruins_ground_tile_03
1	min_entry_ceiling
1	mine_wooden_support
1	forest_elevation_ledge
1	min_entrance_occluder
1	skuggs_forest_waterfall
1	castle_ceiling_1110
1	urban_town_wooden_ceiling_NO_OCCLUDE
1	beach_rock_spire_pillar
1	skuggs_forest_waterfall_river_below
1	skuggs_forest_waterfall_river
1	min_shoplabel_18
1	castle_pillar_tall_01
1	daemon_head_ruins
1	forest_ruins_fallen_bricks
1	border_e3_r1
1	min_shoplabel_42
1	forest_statue_2
1	xan_offset_floor_dirt
1	border_e4_l1_c
1	border_e4_l1
1	border_e4_l2_c
1	min_shoplabel_24
1	min_shoplabel_36
1	dungeon_ceiling_shaft_1000
1	dc_stone_floor
1	dc_forest_statue_pillar_03
1	castle_ceiling_1011
1	dungeon_ceiling_shaft_0100
1	border_e5
1	castle_facade_forest
1	mine_ceiling_03
1	aan_king_crown_big
1	min_shoplabel_54
1	twisted_forest_seal_asylum
1	castle_facade_asylum
1	min_shoplabel_30
1	twisted_forest_seal
1	border_e4_l2
1	castle_ceiling_1111
1	min_shoplabel_66
1	aan2_floor_corpse_bones_only
1	min_reload_detector
1	border_e3_l2_c
1	dc_tome_moon
1	min_shoplabel_60
================================================================================
Full save state components:
================================================================================
5299	ModelComponent
1563	ControllerComponent
1506	ClickableComponent
1398	ItemConstrainBoxComponent
1069	ItemComponent
1017	LightComponent
1002	ParticleComponent
863	DoorComponent
812	PlatformComponent
646	AnimationComponent
543	SurfaceComponent
499	SoundComponent
475	OccluderComponent
433	GravityComponent
412	FloorTriggerComponent
356	ObstacleComponent
324	ProjectileColliderComponent
274	MonsterAttackComponent
245	ScrollItemComponent
227	UsableItemComponent
219	SocketComponent
196	WallTextComponent
196	MonsterMoveComponent
193	DynamicObstacleComponent
186	TeleporterComponent
183	MonsterComponent
182	MonsterTurnComponent
180	LadderComponent
177	ScriptComponent
150	MeleeAttackComponent
148	NullComponent
141	ScriptControllerComponent
117	EquipmentItemComponent
108	ButtonComponent
107	PushableBlockFloorComponent
104	ThrowAttackComponent
93	TorchHolderControllerComponent
89	TorchItemComponent
88	TimerComponent
80	AmmoItemComponent
71	TileDamagerComponent
67	MeleeBrainComponent
64	LeverComponent
55	SpawnerComponent
53	HealthComponent
51	MonsterActionComponent
49	SecretComponent
48	CounterComponent
44	PitComponent
39	StairsComponent
36	ForceFieldComponent
36	ChestComponent
30	MonsterChangeAltitudeComponent
27	ContainerItemComponent
26	PullChainComponent
25	WallTriggerComponent
19	BombItemComponent
16	CastSpellComponent
16	MonsterMoveAttackComponent
16	UggardianFlamesComponent
15	RangedBrainComponent
15	LockComponent
14	WaterSurfaceMeshComponent
14	WaterSurfaceComponent
13	SmallFishControllerComponent
12	ExitComponent
11	RunePanelComponent
11	TinyCritterControllerComponent
10	FirearmAttackComponent
10	TwigrootBrainComponent
9	OgreBrainComponent
9	RangedAttackComponent
9	MonsterChargeComponent
9	PushableBlockComponent
9	BossFightComponent
8	HeightmapComponent
8	SkeletonArcherBrainComponent
8	SlimeBrainComponent
8	EyctopusBrainComponent
7	LensFlareComponent
7	SkyComponent
7	CrystalComponent
6	ZarchtonBrainComponent
6	IceGuardianBrainComponent
6	SpellScrollItemComponent
6	BrainComponent
5	MonsterJumpComponent
5	ToadBrainComponent
5	MosquitoSwarmBrainComponent
5	StonePhilosopherControllerComponent
5	MonsterStealWeaponComponent
5	MapGraphicsComponent
5	HerderSmallBrainComponent
4	SkeletonCommanderBrainComponent
4	XeloroidBrainComponent
4	FogParticlesComponent
4	DiggingToolComponent
3	RopeToolComponent
3	PoisonCloudAttackComponent
3	TricksterBrainComponent
3	HerderBigBrainComponent
3	MonsterWarpComponent
3	MonsterOperateDeviceComponent
3	SwarmBrainComponent
2	MagmaGolemBrainComponent
2	ReloadFirearmComponent
2	CraftPotionComponent
2	ItemActionComponent
2	UggardianBrainComponent
1	CameraShakeComponent
1	TurtleBrainComponent
1	CrabBrainComponent
1	FogParamsComponent
1	StatisticsComponent
1	WizardBrainComponent
1	WargBrainComponent
1	PartyComponent
1	CrowernAttackComponent
================================================================================
Minimal save state components:
================================================================================
30044	ModelComponent
15355	OccluderComponent
2477	AnimationComponent
1437	ObstacleComponent
1419	ProjectileColliderComponent
1118	DoorComponent
393	LightComponent
186	PlatformComponent
109	ParticleComponent
52	ItemConstrainBoxComponent
44	PitComponent
20	ClickableComponent
10	ControllerComponent
6	WallTextComponent
3	PortalComponent
3	SocketComponent
3	SurfaceComponent
2	StairsComponent
2	SoundComponent
1	ItemComponent
1	NullComponent
This is a good way to see which objects should probably be changed to have minimalSaveState, for example only one of the castle_bridge_grating objects in the dungeon ("mech_elevator" in Azel's room) actually needs full save state so it would be better to split it into two objects and give the other 258 castle_bridge_gratings minimalSaveState. Same issue with castle_bridge.
Grimrock 1 dungeon
Grimrock 2 resources
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Isaac
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Re: [Open / Signup] One Room Round Robin 3 - Calling All Mod

Post by Isaac »

Astounding work! 8-)
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AndakRainor
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Re: [Open / Signup] One Room Round Robin 3 - Calling All Mod

Post by AndakRainor »

good!

PS: There is no limit to short posts on the forum? :lol:
PPS: Isaac, admit it, you did not read all of this ;)
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AndakRainor
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Re: [Open / Signup] One Room Round Robin 3 - Calling All Mod

Post by AndakRainor »

minmay wrote:I've uploaded revision 39. I ended up doing a lot more than I mentioned in my post, since nobody else seemed to want to work on the mod at the moment.
If nobody takes the file, I still have some things to do on the spells as you mentioned, so I will work on it if every one is ok.
minmay wrote:- Bug fix: that one fire spell is no longer missing alpha channel in the 75x75 icon
Which spell?
minmay wrote:AndakRainor, you need to optimize your Light spell (or revert to the builtin one if you prefer). Normally I wouldn't complain about something like this, but Light is something that is usually active for most of the game. My computer is pretty powerful, and it still adds about 15 ms to the update time at high power which is frankly terrible. The range gets too high at high power, you don't even disable torch while your spell is active, it looks like you leave dark enabled all the time even when it's not being used, and party lights certainly should not force shadow casting (if you want to add an options menu you could let them toggle Light shadow casting from there, but it is absolutely terrible to force it onto players when it adds so little and hurts performance so much). Also, Darkness is missing now...? Seems like the party should have a way to deactivate the light spell without waiting out its duration...

You should disable torch and combine its color/brightness with the light spells' when the party has a TorchItem with fuel (torch still updates its color/brightness/offset while disabled) instead of having two active LightComponents at once. Also consider adopting its offset.
Yes, that what I said previously when I reduced the number of spells to 45. Why would some one want to stop the light? Does it prevent invisibility? I did not notice a performance problem, and did not think 2 lights was too much, but ok, it can only improve things... What is the maximum range you have in mind? Also, I have at least another spell that creates an additional light component, fire aura... I will need a new system to merge everything.
minmay wrote:Zone effects also have serious performance problems, O(n^3) when the constant cost is so high becomes unmanageable pretty quick and it makes wind rider an incredible pain in the ass to use. I suggest removing the z axis from zone effects altogether, and removing the z check from oracle so it can still detect secrets at different elevations. I'm not convinced that being able to attack monsters above you is good in the first place - there are rooms where there are monsters above you that you obviously are not supposed to be able to attack (THOM's, Azel's, The Cube's). Switching to Taxicab geometry would also improve performance a bit. Another thing you might need to do is only affect a maximum of, say, 8 squares per frame, and spread later iterations out over several frames (this is very inelegant so it is probably better to reduce the very long ranges of spells like wind rider).
Well, it is still a lot better in a table than with the delayedcall function. I think I will replace Oracle with something else. Removing the z range of zone effects seems reasonable, but if you use the same logic, all zone effect spells should be removed as they don't exist in Isle of Nex and could still reach monsters not on a straight line in front of the party. Again, what maximum range do you have in mind for zone effects?
minmay wrote:Grant experience for all kills
In the base game the party only gains experience from a monster's death if they were the ones to deal the killing blow. Monsters killed by environmental hazards, telefragging, crushing, other monsters' projectiles, etc. do not award experience.
It is pretty easy in Grimrock 2 to make all monster deaths award experience instead, even environmental ones.
It's also easy to make experience be awarded to dead/petrified champions, if that is also desired.
I personally support this change quite strongly, it's not fun to lose xp, especially as a punishment for using the environment to your advantage.
I totally agree with that! I played grimrock 2 with fast learner humans and rushed to get the bonus xp pendants. I even remember reloading a save after telefragging skeletons by accident! I want more levels and more spells :lol:
minmay wrote:Spell learning
With the addition of the spell pack came a big core mechanical change: the scroll for a spell must be found before you can cast it.
Should this be kept, or should it work like the base game where you can cast anything you meet the requirements for (and know/guess the runes to)?
And if it isn't kept, should the spellbook start the game with all spells in it, so the player can see all the spells immediately?
I don't really have an opinion on either of these one way or the other.
Currently the party starts with the crystal shard of spell scrolls since most of the spell scrolls haven't been placed.
This is closely related to another question I asked but I had no answer; does the mod allow importing champions? Preventing players to cast spells they know has a much bigger impact on high level mages than on level 1. I wanted this limitation for my mod because I think it is more fair when starting a game to have no more spells available than weapons. It could even require removing spell traits from champions when starting the mod. If we don't want to allow champions imports, then limiting spells is nearly meaningless.
minmay wrote:Grant extra experience for parties with fewer than 4 champions
Self-explanatory. I don't have an opinion either way on this. I will, however, point out that this will not result in exact skill point parity because experience cost increases with level - and not very smoothly.
I would like that, and the experience cost argument is clearly in favor of giving this fair boost to reduced parties.
minmay wrote:Keyboard support for attacking & spellcasting
Wasn't that an important design choice for Grimrock? You are supposed to use your mouse for those things, it is the tradition!
minmay wrote:More realistic item weights
Most of the weapons and armor in the standard assets are far heavier than they are in real life, especially the swords and plate armor. It's easy to change them to be more realistic if that is desired.
I never payed attention to that! But what is the realistic weight of a magical armor with particle effects in real life? :roll:
minmay wrote:Item balancing
So it is a work in progress? What are the improvements you wish to implement for this evaluation? Also, I see that Guardian blade is evaluated a lot less powerful than Ghost blade. Those two are very similar weapons, their melee attack only difference is the base attribute they use; vitality for Guardian blade and willpower for Ghost blade. Did you use 21 vitality in your test too?
A few ideas about the points you raised:
- How about making non-strength attributes easier to find in the mod to be on par with strength?
- How about adding dexterity as the base attribute for firearms? This would introduce some scaling damage as the other weapon types. (And still increase their base damage if needed)
- Should spell casters also be evaluated and compared to weapon users?
- Rage potions should definitively not stack. Never. However, it should be clearly announced to the player in the description.
- Is bear form a problem? Is it that powerful? (I never really used it seriously in the game).
minmay
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Re: [Open / Signup] One Room Round Robin 3 - Calling All Mod

Post by minmay »

AndakRainor wrote:
minmay wrote:- Bug fix: that one fire spell is no longer missing alpha channel in the 75x75 icon
Which spell?
Fire Aura. Sorry, I couldn't remember the name when I wrote the changelog entry and forgot to look it up later.
AndakRainor wrote:Yes, that what I said previously when I reduced the number of spells to 45. Why would some one want to stop the light? Does it prevent invisibility?
Light/darkness don't affect invisibility (but it is a common misconception that they do). But you may want to cast darkness to see what a room looks like in lower light, or just to improve your framerate. I don't think it's necessarily needed, but there are situations where I cast it.
AndakRainor wrote:I did not notice a performance problem, and did not think 2 lights was too much, but ok, it can only improve things...
2 LightComponents isn't necessarily "too much", but when they're both in the same location and serve the same purpose, they should probably be merged into one LightComponent for better performance. And when they're following the party everywhere that "probably" really becomes "definitely".
AndakRainor wrote:What is the maximum range you have in mind?
Actually now that I look at the numbers again, I think the current range formula is probably okay IF you remove shadow casting and keep only one LightComponent enabled on the party at a time. You should probably cap the range at about 15 though. Remember that on levels without SkyComponents anything more than 20 Chebyshev meters away gets faded out (complete black and occluded at 25 meters).
I do think that either a constant range (probably 9), or a range that scales logarithmically instead of linearly, would be better - currently the spell is useless at low concentration skill because the range is so short.
AndakRainor wrote:Also, I have at least another spell that creates an additional light component, fire aura... I will need a new system to merge everything.
obviously just keep torch and fire_aura disabled and do this

Code: Select all

party.light_spell:setColor(vec(r,g,b) + party.torch:getColor()*party.torch:getBrightness() + party.fire_aura:getColor()*party.fire_aura:getBrightness())
AndakRainor wrote:Removing the z range of zone effects seems reasonable, but if you use the same logic, all zone effect spells should be removed as they don't exist in Isle of Nex and could still reach monsters not on a straight line in front of the party.
Sure - and you might recall I've argued exactly that - but this isn't just a design purity issue, there are rooms in the mod, right now, that are broken by allowing the party to attack squares above them. The barrel-blocked receptor puzzle in The Cube's room is completely trivialized by Arcane Nova. I'm pretty sure Duncan's room can be broken by this as well, but that room is so buggy in general that it's hard to tell.
Then there are tons monsters you can kill with zone effects from different elevations in Azel's, THOM's, sps999's, Xanathar's, Dhomochevsky's, Diarmuid's, The Cube's, Duncan's, and aaneton's rooms. You clearly are not supposed to be able to kill these monsters from above/below. Like it or not, you cannot allow attacks across the z-axis without hurting the majority of the rooms in the mod. Not a good trade, imo. Allowing diagonal attacks might not cause immediately obvious problems at the moment, but allowing vertical attacks definitely does.
AndakRainor wrote:Again, what maximum range do you have in mind for zone effects?
Low enough that it doesn't result in noticeable skips in the framerate. So for a zone effect that calls entitiesAt on every affected tile, like Wind Rider, it needs to be pretty short. On my i7-4790K, on a level with extremely low entity density (cemtery), Wind Rider starts causing noticeable jumps when it reaches range 9. On levels with greater entity density like the current Abandoned Town, the jumps begin at range 7. When I cast Wind Rider I don't care about clearing poison clouds 7 squares away, I just want to run faster and fall slower. So when I get a big lag spike every second for the latter half of the spell's effect, that's pretty unpleasant.
AndakRainor wrote:This is closely related to another question I asked but I had no answer; does the mod allow importing champions? Preventing players to cast spells they know has a much bigger impact on high level mages than on level 1. I wanted this limitation for my mod because I think it is more fair when starting a game to have no more spells available than weapons. It could even require removing spell traits from champions when starting the mod. If we don't want to allow champions imports, then limiting spells is nearly meaningless.
I don't think anyone wants to forbid players from importing champions.

AndakRainor wrote:
minmay wrote:Item balancing
So it is a work in progress? What are the improvements you wish to implement for this evaluation? Also, I see that Guardian blade is evaluated a lot less powerful than Ghost blade. Those two are very similar weapons, their melee attack only difference is the base attribute they use; vitality for Guardian blade and willpower for Ghost blade. Did you use 21 vitality in your test too?
I missed guardian blade when looking at weapons, so I didn't bother to give the champion 21 vitality. With 21 vitality they will have the same results. As far as improving computeDamage() there is not much to be done until I discover what the evasion formula is. Testing at nonzero protection doesn't really make the results more informative, which is why I didn't bother to add it yet, especially since most monsters actually have 0 protection anyway. Against evasion 0, however, accuracy still matters, and the majority of attacks won't be made against sleeping/frozen monsters.
I could make it support repeated actions and secondary actions, but there are very few repeated actions and secondary actions almost always have worse DPS than the primary action (as well as preventing other attacks while charging which is another disadvantage) so what's the point?

On the other hand there's a lot to be improved with testDamage(), in particular making it give you ammunition. I'll do that Some Other Time(tm).

Monsters with nonzero protection: crab (20), both ogres (17), ice guardian (10), ice lizard (5), lindworm (10), magma golem(15), medusa (5), mimic (15), ratling boss (5), all other ratlings (3), skeleton archer (5), skeleton commander (15) skeleton trooper (5), skeleton warrior (5), summon stone (30) uggardian (5), warden (20), wyvern (7), xeloroid (4).
You might notice that the set of monsters with meaningful protection is a subset of the monsters that are really easy to backstab, with the exceptions of summon stones, ice guardians, and crabs. And backstab bonus is applied before protection is. So monster protection doesn't stop light weapons from being the best, sorry.
AndakRainor wrote:- How about making non-strength attributes easier to find in the mod to be on par with strength?
I'd rather make rage less crazy.
AndakRainor wrote:- How about adding dexterity as the base attribute for firearms? This would introduce some scaling damage as the other weapon types. (And still increase their base damage if needed)
You would definitely still need to increase their base damage.
AndakRainor wrote:- Should spell casters also be evaluated and compared to weapon users?
Yes but it's really hard to do that because of all the extra effects attached to spells, so I'm not volunteering.
AndakRainor wrote:- Rage potions should definitively not stack. Never. However, it should be clearly announced to the player in the description.
Agreed.
AndakRainor wrote:- Is bear form a problem? Is it that powerful? (I never really used it seriously in the game).
It is extremely powerful. 15 base power + strength (which is increased by 50!) at 2.7 delay, WITH DUAL ATTACKS THAT HAVE NO DAMAGE LOSS (get light weapons 3, dual wield daggers, and you have dual bear form - this is really a bug...). You lose 2 energy per second and it ends when you run out of energy, so every energy potion is 37.5 more seconds and every greater energy potion is 75 more, then you have healing crystals to replenish it too.
On the other hand, you can't backstab with it, so that keeps it sort of sane? Maybe it's not a problem.
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Isaac
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Re: [Open / Signup] One Room Round Robin 3 - Calling All Mod

Post by Isaac »

Why not replace bear form with a custom version that doesn't have the energy issues? Perhaps a fixed amount of time or a maybe level or stat based duration?

As they are, bear-form potions turn mages into high-damage melee fighters, with energy reserve in the hundreds.
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AndakRainor
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Re: [Open / Signup] One Room Round Robin 3 - Calling All Mod

Post by AndakRainor »

Isaac wrote:Why not replace bear form with a custom version that doesn't have the energy issues? Perhaps a fixed amount of time or a maybe level or stat based duration?

As they are, bear-form potions turn mages into high-damage melee fighters, with energy reserve in the hundreds.
Good idea, it can be simply a fixed duration. Also, as opposed to the rage potion, this one can have a cumulative duration.

A few more ideas on the subject of customizing game mechanics;

- If no one wants to forbid importing champions, that's good news in my opinion. I really was not sure, if you remember there was a discussion about it in the forum some time ago, and a majority of modders were against it for their own mods. When I saw the custom races and skills in this project, I seriously had a doubt about the intentions of the team. In this case, what do you think about pushing the spells limitation system further and remove the spells traits from champions at the start of a new game?

- If no one protests, I think we should add the +20% base damage per skill point to firearms and use dexterity as the base attribute for all of them, then buff the actual items base damage accordingly.

- How about buffing the wizard class by replacing its +2 willpower bonus by +1 willpower per level, in the same way the barbarian works? health and energy gains per level would be adapted to this change. It would have synergy with the spell pack willpower bonuses.

- May be help another weak class with a +1 dexterity per level bonus?

- The knight class could perhaps get +1 vitality per level in addition to the protection bonus. They would then work well with the guardian blade.

- Casters evaluation: instead of building a very complex model to evaluate the side effects, crowd control, utility, etc, the DPS of the best fire spell against one target at X willpower value can be enough to take decisions?
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Isaac
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Re: [Open / Signup] One Room Round Robin 3 - Calling All Mod

Post by Isaac »

AndakRainor wrote:Good idea, it can be simply a fixed duration. Also, as opposed to the rage potion, this one can have a cumulative duration.
Bear form already has the effect that taking another restores maximum energy; but taking two immediately does not double the duration.

*I have a Tiger Form in the works [unfinished, but functional]. Tiger Form gives +25 strength, and reach attacks. It uses the same energy mechanic. The trick was to ensure that the polymorphs don't stack... by using Tiger Form and then Bear Form; with bonuses from each. The Bear form effect handles this automatically [afaik]; I had to make the Tiger Form handle it in the condition. Using TF ends Bear form and vice-versa.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tq3vk02qubnp0 ... m.avi?dl=0

___________
I am generally not partial to level scaling; where as the party levels, so does everything else... But what we might do, is detect [and inspect] a high level party in the beginning, and ramp up the entire dungeon [or just parts of it] by fixed increments. What this could mean, is that when the party starts with developed skills and hitpoints, that various low tier monsters receive a minor bump in stats as well ~so that they aren't utter pushovers; though they can still be low-end fodder; just maybe two show up instead of one, or they have 10% more hitpoints each, (or they have an item to drop)...

Spawned and available loot could reflect the party's initial stats and experience; [scaled upwards in utility and value]. In ORRR2, I started to implement +1 weapons, before I realized that I didn't know if they could be made to apply their bonuses properly. So I had to change their effects to minor spells like fireburst and elemental protections. Could we not implement +1 [2,3,4] weapons now; (that actually work)? For lack of a better parallel, we could use Diablo style weapons & armor that get an additional boosted effect or quality... like 'Dagger of Asps' being a +1 'venom edge'; and we do this with weighted lists that lean away from the lower end results as the party improves.

*Not in realtime [though that might be possible], I just meant at the starting evaluation of the party; to give certain loot [lists] a one-time incremental improvement if the party is obviously advanced... so that a bone club might be replaced by cudgel. This is just a thought that might improve the pace of the beginning of the game for parties [players] coming from another mod's end game.

Another thing that could be done, is simple palette alteration, and/or minor embellishment of the existing item atlases, to give at least double the choice of icons for our items.

**Obviously though... any major changes to the icon atlas must come with updated model textures. :o
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Re: [Open / Signup] One Room Round Robin 3 - Calling All Mod

Post by THOM »

There are still some questions to the ORRR3-Modders-Community floating around. So here are my answers (as far as I'm able to give one):

Grant experience for all kills
I'm a friend of restrictions in the game mechanics. Don't make it too cozy for the player. In my opinion I don't see why a party should gain XP if they are not involved in killing a certain monster. Or in case of crushing: kill it by a risk-free trick. On my opinion it is already amazing that a champion gets XP if he/she wasn't involved in the combat.

Spell learning
Mh. complex. If the player starts with a new party, I think it's okay if spellcasting is restricted. But if a player uses an experienced party, I don't see why a champion who is a wizard on level 12 has no idea about spellcasting...
Another thing would be, if every player would need a certain object to do magic. Like a Fighter needs a weapon to use his swordmaster-skill.

Fast travel
Hard to say because I have no idea how important travelling in ORRR3 will be. Maybe we implement this at the end?

Toorum mode
I don't see why it shouldn't be implemented...

Grant extra experience for parties with fewer than 4 champions
What do you mean, minmay? The party should get an extra-bonus if it consists of less than 4 champions? Do see why this should be.

Keyboard support for attacking & spellcasting
See on one: Don't make it too cozy. The original game-handling of LoG2 says that there is no keyboard support. And me for myself never had the wish there should be some...

More realistic item weights
I presume every modder has another opinion, what the right entrys will be... Someone has to decide which is a "realistric" weight. If it's minmay, I'm fine with it.

Importing champions
I'm fine with that. I like that possibility in Grimrock. Even that can evoke some strange effects. Areas with low-level enemies, that are a real challenge for new parties, could become a calm walk for a level 12 party... Therefore I like Isaacs Suggestion of boosting the combat for high-level partys.

Enhancing Firearms
I would absolutely recommend that - or throw them out of the game. But I'm not quite sure about enhancing them in which way. In my mod I altered some definition-entries (cooldown, jam-chance, attackvalue...) But I would also like to see having them an attribute-bonus.

Concerning loot-dispersion: like many other toppics (like some of the above ones, too) I think at the end someone has to make a final decision. I am quiet sure we cannot discuss out every of these details. It would be good if there will be a suggestion at the end and every modder can tell if it's okay for him having these items in his room.

So far...
Last edited by THOM on Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:02 pm, edited 10 times in total.
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Re: [Open / Signup] One Room Round Robin 3 - Calling All Mod

Post by THOM »

EDIT: Oh, cool - doublepost...
Last edited by THOM on Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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