Grimrock

Dr.Disaster wrote:

Rithrin wrote:I want food to stay. I like how it feels, generally, in Grimrock. Azel doesn't. It's a differing of opinions. Nowhere did he say that he had a problem with finding or gathering food, but his detractors have been repeating this constantly, as if it is the driving force behind his posts. He just doesn't get a good feeling from the combination of puzzle solving and hunger urgency. If you're going crap all over someone, at least represent their opinions correctly. Otherwise, you just look silly sitting around with manure-covered straw men.

You identified the key point of the disagreement: he see's a hunger urgency that is - to be frank - selfmade. Player actions like walking, fighting/spellcasting and thus auto-regenerating health/energy and even resting cause hunger in LoG2 while standing still and doing nothing does not. This is very easy to verify: start a new game and have the party sit in the cage. Now leave for bathroom/kitchen/shopping/whatever and return after some time has passed. You'll find the party still sitting there awaiting your commands without a change on their food bar.

Now if players finds a puzzle but miss or don't unterstand it's hints they can always try to brute force them. Azel's statements regarding the Archives and Tetris puzzles reflect that this seems to be his default route. Due to this he moves his party a lot but accomplishes little beside generating hunger. This might cause him frustration but it's after all selfmade.

Well, you're right about the hunger bar not moving if you stand still, but there is still urgency. It seems a little silly to tell people that, in a game about tactile personal exploration of areas (Finding levers, pushing buttons, picking up items individually, etc), you should tell people to stand still until they've figured out a puzzle. A lot of puzzles do require walking around a bit. With the Tetris puzzle, it's not unreasonable for someone to think that there might be underwater hidden switches to press, or to not know that the map needs to be rotated, resulting in food usage. Unlike the "floor of light" room (I think that's the name?) where you can just look at the in-game map and work out mentally how to properly path across it. That said, even if your characters are "starving", it has no effect on the here and now. It stunts your regeneration mainly. If you starve because you're piecing together a puzzle, then get jumped by mummies, you're in no danger provided you weren't low on health to begin with. So if you need extra long to solve a puzzle, and also run around a lot, you can just not feed your characters until you've solved the puzzle or have given up.

This is why I think the food system does not detract from puzzle solving (You can starve forever while puzzling, and it doesn't hurt you). The hunger "urgency" I refer to is created by the need to ration food and forecast how much you will need/can carry vs how long you'll be down inside a dungeon. In essence, I don't think the hunger system interacts much, at all, with the Puzzle Game aspect of Grimrock, but only the Dungeon Crawler aspect.

Rithrin wrote:even if your characters are "starving", it has no effect on the here and now.

That could be argued, yes. So why not just get rid of food then? It has no effect on the here and now, so it won't be missed when it's gone, right?

You see, you are on my side of the debate, you just don't know it yet!

Rithrin wrote:This is why I think the food system does not detract from puzzle solving (You can starve forever while puzzling, and it doesn't hurt you). The hunger "urgency" I refer to is created by the need to ration food and forecast how much you will need/can carry vs how long you'll be down inside a dungeon. In essence, I don't think the hunger system interacts much, at all, with the Puzzle Game aspect of Grimrock, but only the Dungeon Crawler aspect.

Yep that's pretty much it. The food usage of walking is about the lowest in the game. Otherwise the party would need to haul crates full of food with it to prevent starvation when it needs to pass a few maps to reach the next unfinished area. It's way easier to build hunger by resting or in prolonged fights i.e. if you want to know how many monster waves the Lindwurm fight has.

Azel wrote:

Rithrin wrote:even if your characters are "starving", it has no effect on the here and now.

That could be argued, yes. So why not just get rid of food then? It has no effect on the here and now, so it won't be missed when it's gone, right?

You see, you are on my side of the debate, you just don't know it yet!

What debate? There is no debate. At best a troll attempt.

@ you mentioning a flame war

I love to read your attempts trying to turn self inflicted problems into arguments why AH has to be change a proven game mechanic. Please continue!

A few more threads talking about food consumption (either ways to make it more convenient, reduce it, or remove it) :

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2538
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2007
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5579
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1598

... and some user reviews commenting on likes, dislikes, including food:

http://tinyurl.com/lowwusv

"Having to eat food is both annoying and useless. Were they trying to go for realism? If so then ditch the magic. There is a reason why most games didn't have it. It isn't fun. Fortunately we also weren't saddled with having to drink, go to the bathroom and sleep. At least an option to turn it off would have been nice."

http://tinyurl.com/l5pjuw2

"Alas...I has a frustration: Puzzles. Wandering to and fro, starving in the dark and flipping switches and levers and teleporting round and round the same halls for hours. Not much fun. For me personally, anyway. "

There are dungeon crawlers that eliminated food and were epic, like Stonekeep:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonekeep

Dr.Disaster wrote:Why else do you think i keep talking to you? It's all about my amusement

... the mantra of every pathetic loser who fails miserably at being a forum warrior. Yes of course, you jump around trying to win fights on the forum not because idiocy is in your DNA... but because the people you are trying so desperately to attack are "amusing you." Kinda like when your mom tells you, "No Dr. Disaster, they are not laughing 'at' you... they are laughing 'with' you." aawww

Well I am more than happy to comply. As long as you keep bending over and willingly offering up your dignity, I will keep inserting the amusement

*yawn* are you getting that desperate in your food obsession that you now have to resort to old LoG1 threads and off-site links?
I actually expect more ..

Dr.Disaster wrote:*yawn* are you getting that desperate in your food obsession that you now have to resort to old LoG1 threads?

*yawn* weren't you the one who brought up old LoG1 when you referenced drinking water?

Azel wrote:

Dr.Disaster wrote:*yawn* are you getting that desperate in your food obsession that you now have to resort to old LoG1 threads?

*yawn* weren't you the one who brought up old LoG1 when you referenced drinking water?

If you memory is still working you might recall that i refered to BOTH LoG's: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=8506&start=20#p86400

In other words, Yes. You brought up LoG 1. Thought so. Don't worry, if you stand in one spot and think for a long time you won't make so many stupid mistakes and get yourself confused. It's harder to answer riddles in real life than in a video game for you, huh? Explains a lot about your blind Fanboism. Keep your chin(s) up!

Azel wrote:In other words, Yes. You brought up LoG 1. Thought so. Don't worry, if you stand in one spot and think for a long time you won't make so many stupid mistakes and get yourself confused. It's harder to answer riddles in real life than in a video game for you, huh? Explains a lot about your blind Fanboism. Keep your chin(s) up!

I accept your surrender.