Grimrock

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pincaviglia86 wrote: Having to keep up with feeding your party members to avoid the effects of starvation, might be old school...but it sure as Hell is not fun, and I think that this should be left out of the series

What's the problem with food? It's so easy to end up with chests full of food, and you wont even use half of it. You may not like it, but some people do, including myself.

pincaviglia86 wrote:just as much as having to use fast reflexes.

Where in Grimrock 2 do you need fast reflexes? Same for Grimrock 1. Fast reflexes, really?

pincaviglia86 wrote:However, how many really "GREAT" games like Skyrim and the like , bog play down with starvation?

There are mods that add the need to eat. In fact, there are mods that create a very interesting survival setup in Skyrim. Frostfall+Requiem+Alternate start (start shipwrecked), and others. Things like Realistic needs. Having to eat makes it more interesting and realistic (of course, how realistic a world with magic and dragons is going to be is debatable).

pincaviglia86 wrote:then why place a "Neck Chain" (which, by its own description, negates the effects of starvation) in one of the dungeons of the game...and why just one...and not four....to cover each party member?

I don't even use that, because there are better necklaces to use. Who cares?

Thorham wrote:

pincaviglia86 wrote: Having to keep up with feeding your party members to avoid the effects of starvation, might be old school...but it sure as Hell is not fun, and I think that this should be left out of the series

What's the problem with food? It's so easy to end up with chests full of food, and you wont even use half of it.?

That is exactly the problem with food. There's infinite food in the game, so you never run out of food, so the mechanic is meaningless; it's just pointless busywork.

if you guys think there's so much food, then try playing with a farmer. mine reached level 17 by the end (rest of party was 14). i know you can get farmer level higher, but it's not easy if you want to keep the rest of the party members fed.

also people often run low or even out of food on their first playthrough when they are discovering the game for themselves and don't know how to do everything efficiently...

When I said infinite, I wasn't exaggerating. I meant literally infinite.
- There are 3 turtle spawners on Shipwreck Beach that trigger every time you walk through the Hub entrance (cooldowns from 11 to 20 minutes).
- The hatchery in the northwest of the Sewers fills up to 10 fish every time you walk through the Hub entrance (no cooldown).
- Walking over the square in front of the Hub teleporter in Keelbreach Bog triggers 3 warg spawners in Hamlet of Stormbeach (cooldowns from 10 to 15 minutes).
- Walking through the entrance of Keelbreach Bog respawns a couple of toads (cooldowns about 11 minutes).
- Probably lots more cases, in general respawning monsters are everywhere.

It's true that these are all somewhat hidden so the mechanic can be meaningful if you have incomplete knowledge of it, but I'm not sure that's really an improvement.

MostlyHarmless wrote:also people often run low or even out of food on their first playthrough when they are discovering the game for themselves and don't know how to do everything efficiently...

Didn't have that problem myself, and still ended up with a couple of chests full of the heavier food items, of which I actually used some. It probably helped that I looked for re-spawning monsters from the start. That run lasted for about 33 hours, so it really shouldn't be a problem.

pincaviglia86 wrote: Having to keep up with feeding your party members to avoid the effects of starvation, might be old school...but it sure as Hell is not fun, and I think that this should be left out of the series

How could it ever be mistakenly thought that the starvation mechanics were meant to be fun? They are supposed to be required; I wouldn't have ever thought that anyone could assume they were supposed to be fun. [That's broadly in general... not meant specifically.]

Starving characters stop regenerating energy and health; making their abilities restrained ~that's the point; it's a hardship one must overcome in order to progress in the game.

pincaviglia86 wrote:However, how many really "GREAT" games like Skyrim and the like , bog play down with starvation?

As you say "great", and so unfit to be examples. Bethesda/Todd are only concerned with delivering a 'Yes-man' product that caters to the player ego... This is why it sells so well, but it's also why they are terrible at making ~games; they are by no means inept, it's just that they aren't trying to make games, they are trying to make money... and they do this very precisely, and very well; and very often at the expense of gameplay. So of course they remove anything that might curtail the player, or cause them even the slightest irritation.
Ironic that their aim is to create a simulation, but that their world lacks the annoyances that make it believable.

Dungeon Crawlers on the other hand, don't need annoyance to be believable; that's sidelong to the point. Starvation is an annoyance that affects system behavior, and affects what you can do without food; and affects what you do in the game at specific times, or for how long.

pincaviglia86 wrote:then why place a "Neck Chain" (which, by its own description, negates the effects of starvation) in one of the dungeons of the game...and why just one...and not four....to cover each party member?

That is the point... Only for one and not four.

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minmay wrote:That is exactly the problem with food. There's infinite food in the game, so you never run out of food, so the mechanic is meaningless; it's just pointless busywork.

I disagree, and would never call it pointless; it certainly has a point to it... but that point is not 'to be fun'.

I also don't understand this, because I ALWAYS and CONSTANTLY ran out of food... My characters were starving to death 20 minutes into the Pyramid, and I would have to leave to Pyramid to scavenge food or hunt turtles and fish.

Isaac wrote:As you say "great", and so unfit to be examples. Bethesda/Todd are only concerned with delivering a 'Yes-man' product that caters to the player ego... This is why it sells so well, but it's also why they are terrible at making ~games; they are by no means inept, it's just that they aren't trying to make games, they are trying to make money... and they do this very precisely, and very well; and very often at the expense of gameplay. So of course they remove anything that might curtail the player, or cause them even the slightest irritation.
Ironic that their aim is to create a simulation, but that their world lacks the annoyances that make it believable.

True, that. For Skyrim there are at least very well made mods that get rid of this problem.