Grimrock

Hallo, I'd like to jump on this bandwaggon too please

After playing Grimrock 2 for about 3 days, and after having played the original Grimrock to 2/3 of the way through before running out of enthusiasm for it, I had some expectations, and people offline seemed to have some expectations which weren't really out of the boundaries of possibility for Grimrock 2, well I think they are going to have to wait for G3, so here are my, and my few friends who know/have played, elements which would have really made Grimrock 2 even more outstanding plus some additions for the next iteration

Expected of Grimrock 2:-
It was tried in G1, but people failed due to a lack of elements available, and that is, to recreate the game, fully within the Editor. It wasn't quite technically possible at the time, with cut-scenes and such if I remember correctly? It would have been nice and perhaps it should have been made possible due to feedback originally, to be able to fully construct G1 within G2, but using user generated cut-scenes etc.

The monsters and items from G1:-
I was sad when I found an absence of snails in the editor for G2, and the chance to add the original skeletons. There are other creatures too which would have been wonderful to add, to be able to complete a recreation of the whole G1 dungeon. So the item we need is an asset importer. To import G1 monsters/items to G2, or failing that, to G3 from 1 and 2.

NPCs - store/shop and an economy.

Again, it would have been very nice if there had been a small village or some such that the player could find respite at, and be able to talk to people, hear rumours of buried treasure (without finding notes) or plot leads, and also a store NPC or two, even if it's one buying, dungeon jetsam, and another selling new items. A place of civilisation could provide so many further adventure leads and help the player, even if the player decided to do the bad thing and attack the villagers... Within the editor this would have allowed the placement of people and to build towns/villages/hamlets, or even the lone hut in the jungle that a crazy old shipwrecked guy lives in, but is desperate for human company/rescue/adventure...

Specifically for G3:-
movement keys WASD still moving straight forward, backward, and sidewards, but having the rotation keys turn through 45 degrees, so it would just enable the world to have more angles but still be 'tile-based' as has been mentioned by other people here.

Custom races for custom dungeons/maps/adventures.
To create Kobolds, or Goblins, or whatever else the creator requires, but to allow stat modifications, along with portraits, and talents/natural abilities both negative and positive within the game engine, so that as an example, you could have 'Bilbo-samwise of the furbiefeet creatures' who had whatever stats like +3 Dex, but also to select elements from 'Can't use' and 'Heavy weapons' With options being positives or negatives to damage/accuracy/crit, or whatever, even adding abilities, like lizard folk based on poison lizards where they lick their arrow heads, so they'd get a chance to inflict poison damage with the appropriate weapons. This whole thing would have allowed the creation of endless races within Grimrock, only limited by the creator's imagination/lifespan.

A biggy here.. Magic:-
I really like how the selection of runes to cast spells looks in G2, compared to G1, but of course it still limits the type and number of spells used, but in different ways now as the runes all need to be connected to each other by the traceable path. I'd imagined an extra set of 3 (or more) runes to add even more spells/options within spell casting so that the player could cast more powerful spells by adding additional runes while sating, for example shock... A new rune in the mix could have made it change so that perhaps it could have been shock strike, to work over the course of the next melee strike or two instead of being an explosion, or being 'Heavy shock' or some such.

Perhaps having areas that would allow concentration within each area of magic, and so the opposite element to the first one learned would be impossible to learn as it would require (some magical reason) like... they are imbued with fire, so water spell magical energy is repelled by them and can't be manipulated, with other spells having modifiers for the first chosen type of magic and how they are arranged on a wheel laid next to each other like a clock, perhaps, or something that would allow a lot more magic to be learned while preventing certain things being learned because of logical reasons within the world setting/magic system rules.

So we could have extra schools like necromancy / angellic / spirtual / nature, or whatever else, which we could also tie to race if we chose as creators, and wouldn't have to rely solely on plants for healing, though the 'nature' realm of magic could be so much more beneficial to an alchemist of course and many things that could be achieved through potions/skills can't be bought about by spells, like the ability to change into bears or whatever it is that they presently do.

So there's still a distinction between spells and professional skills etc, and it doesn't mean that the dungeon(s) that the original engine revolves around don't necessarily have to have these spells included as playable immediately, but can be available fully via the editor for play choice and variation. I'd even be willing to pay a little extra later for some extra professions and spells, and also for the custom races, all as dlc. to add to the editor so that I could create 'stuff' that isn't in the main game adventure. So the game would be complete as is, but to use the Editor would open a can of serious adventure creation tools that, again, would only be limited by the creator's imagination.

I have other thoughts on this and how it could be used to improve the game, but I'll stop there right now, as I'm not sure if any of this is terribly clear in reading.

Batty wrote:Definitely tile based but how about an octagonal grid that would allow diagonal movement.

This +1 !

Truth be told, while side-stepping enemies is not part of the "strategy" of battling monster in the LoG series, having octagonal squares would eliminate this "feature" and make combat much more involved with focus on your toon being primary over how fast you are with your fingers. Don't get me wrong, I love the current setup, however I feel this would be the next obvious progression in the series in terms of important changes to the mechanics of game play.

spacecookie wrote: So we could have extra schools like necromancy / angellic / spirtual / nature, or whatever else, which we could also tie to race if we chose as creators, and wouldn't have to rely solely on plants for healing, though the 'nature' realm of magic could be so much more beneficial to an alchemist of course and many things that could be achieved through potions/skills can't be bought about by spells, like the ability to change into bears or whatever it is that they presently do.

So there's still a distinction between spells and professional skills etc, and it doesn't mean that the dungeon(s) that the original engine revolves around don't necessarily have to have these spells included as playable immediately, but can be available fully via the editor for play choice and variation. I'd even be willing to pay a little extra later for some extra professions and spells, and also for the custom races, all as dlc. to add to the editor so that I could create 'stuff' that isn't in the main game adventure. So the game would be complete as is, but to use the Editor would open a can of serious adventure creation tools that, again, would only be limited by the creator's imagination.

I like the idea of the "priest" or "cleric" class for one. The alchemist is pretty close, but there are some cool spell ideas specific to a priest protagonist and his/her pantheon that could really play well with the series.

In addition regarding what you said about magic in general, I have always felt the system Dungeon Master had not only set the mold, but still is/was the ideal system for this type of game, and all other magic systems this genre tries to replace it with pales in comparison to the original; in short, bring back the DM-style spell system, because drawing lines between runes and clicking through four levels or rune takes drought the same amount of time, but you get much, much more out of the DM system!

Taem wrote:

Batty wrote:Definitely tile based but how about an octagonal grid that would allow diagonal movement.

This +1 !

Truth be told, while side-stepping enemies is not part of the "strategy" of battling monster in the LoG series, having octagonal squares would eliminate this "feature" and make combat much more involved with focus on your toon being primary over how fast you are with your fingers. Don't get me wrong, I love the current setup, however I feel this would be the next obvious progression in the series in terms of important changes to the mechanics of game play.

Not really more directions is not going to change the core mechanic and AI that works currently is a step type system. Since everything works off a sort of queued action system there will still be the issue of finding the Mobs rythm and moving around that rythm just now instead of a 2x2 dance you will have a slightly few extra tiles to your dance. You will still move out of their attack line so you can attack them on their side and try to stay there. Out side of going to true freeform movement and free flowing actions this will always be part of how LoG works.

More "squares" and directions will not remove the "feature" of moving out of enemies attackable tiles.

Saice wrote:

Taem wrote:

Batty wrote:Definitely tile based but how about an octagonal grid that would allow diagonal movement.

This +1 !

Truth be told, while side-stepping enemies is not part of the "strategy" of battling monster in the LoG series, having octagonal squares would eliminate this "feature" and make combat much more involved with focus on your toon being primary over how fast you are with your fingers. Don't get me wrong, I love the current setup, however I feel this would be the next obvious progression in the series in terms of important changes to the mechanics of game play.

Not really more directions is not going to change the core mechanic and AI that works currently is a step type system. Since everything works off a sort of queued action system there will still be the issue of finding the Mobs rythm and moving around that rythm just now instead of a 2x2 dance you will have a slightly few extra tiles to your dance. You will still move out of their attack line so you can attack them on their side and try to stay there. Out side of going to true freeform movement and free flowing actions this will always be part of how LoG works.

More "squares" and directions will not remove the "feature" of moving out of enemies attackable tiles.

This is true, however as it is now, you can keep an enemy in a diagonal square and "dance" with it. In an octagonal situation the enemy would always be facing you and if "Attacks of Opportunity" were afforded to the game play, then the dance would not be the same and require a completely different strategy, as stepping away from the foe could provoke attacks of opportunity from the monster.

See "Provoking an Attack of Opportunity:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attack ... tunity.htm

About the hex tiles, while they would be neat, I don't really see how they would add much to the game. Maybe little things, but the amount of work that would have to go into it would be much better spent elsewhere. On several smaller tweaks that change the game in a big way. Reading this thread one of my favorite ideas was a grid for melee skills. You could have each grid be a stance, or something like it. You could trace from "Lean back" to "forward brace" And then "thrust" to do an enhanced stab. I think that would be amazing.

Taem wrote: This is true, however as it is now, you can keep an enemy in a diagonal square and "dance" with it. In an octagonal situation the enemy would always be facing you and if "Attacks of Opportunity" were afforded to the game play, then the dance would not be the same and require a completely different strategy, as stepping away from the foe could provoke attacks of opportunity from the monster.

You can have Attack of Opportunity on the current system just as easy as one with more directions and tiles. After all D&D has done it for a loooong time on a simple grid. So Yes AoOs would be a nice addition but we do not need to make the play space more complex and rewrite the engine just to do that.

Hex/octagonal movement? I don't think it would work. It would simply make moving more tedious and confusing. Especially turning.

It can be either square tiles or free movement but not something weird in between.

Just my 2 cents

Played LoG1 for ~80 hours and LoG2 for about 40 hours (now) I'd love to see LoG 3!
I really enjoyed both parts, and I think LoG2 has improved in many ways compared to LoG1.

Of course there are a lot of things I would like to see, more weapons, more interaction, more of everything!
I'd instant buy an Addon to LoG2, and of course I'd buy LoG3 as soon as it's out!

Thanks for this great game!

As it is, all interactions in Grimrock 2 is physical. I'd love to see some interactions that didn't involve either button pressing, bashing something or reading notes for puzzle hints or backstory. As it is, it's a pure dungeon crawler, but it has expanded from the one dungeon in LoG1 to an amazing place with outdoor areas and a hub for easy access -a very nice improvement. The nonlinearity of it is excellent, but in my opinion it still lacks interaction, choices.

I'd love to see some more meaningful interaction in the game, even if it would be as basic as some of the options in Eye of the Beholder 2: Leave, Help, Attack. Not necessarily heaps of dialogue, but something else than just solve it or kill it.

The idea of a village is nice. Perhaps be able to restock on bread or fish, very rarely some herbs from a foraging kid or if you're very lucky, a potion washed up on the beach and someone sells it to you for a high price or if you do them a favour.