Grimrock

I'd also like to see more humanoid type opponents. Troglodytes, goblins etc. Perhaps they could work simialr to the undead soldiers in that they take up only one fourth of a square, but perhaps freely moving rather than being stuck in their squad to portray less organisation.

Mainly I would like to see the following things:

1. Improved AI. It's simply too easy to 'outsmart' enemies. Something that really needs to be addressed imo is the way creatures with ranged attacks behave. If I see a ranged unit from far away and fire arrows at it, then move to the side using a wall as cover the ranged unit will do the same (move to the side at his side of the wall). Which is stupid. I can reload and fire again, over and over and the ranged unit is never able to hit me. Generally creatures should attack more relentlessly and try to reach you as fast as they can. They can't dodge anyway, so why not. Or maybe they could wait around a corner for you to come - after all you want to get past them and not the other way around.

2. Improved combat mechanics. Somewhat related to my first point, but the way combat works now is really the only serious complaint I have about the game. A single enemy is never a threat, no matter how much health he has or how much damage he causes. By simply strafing around you can avoid any attack easily since you are always faster than your enemy - and it doesn't take quick reflexes to do that, even my grandpa would be able to avoid their hits if he still lived. Only the wasp type enemies are a bit harder to dodge, everything else is a joke. Then you have doors which you can close to easily restore your health, energy etc. And you can of course use the open/close door trick to kill enemies easily. All of this combined makes combat only dangerous when you are trapped in a room with multiple enemies or ambushed by multiple enemies.

3. Improved skill/attribute system. While I guess the developers wanted to go for simplicity I think you should at least be able to choose skills and attributes independent from each other. It's quite annoying when I have an archer and the only attribute bonus I get is dexterity, which is useless. The same is true for other skills. There should also be a reason to choose more than one skill. Usually you have to concentrate on one skill or you're wasting points. This is especially true for rogues using ranged weapons. The leveling system is far to simple for my taste, usually you choose one skill at the beginning and then mindlessly put all your 4 points into it once you level up. Sometimes there is a secondary skill (like armor for fighters until you have the light/heavy armor perk or a bit of spellcraft for mages), but that's it.

Phitt wrote:Mainly I would like to see the following things:
...

Remember a single enemy is fighting four adventurers ~it's 4 against 1 almost all of the time. Single enemies do not need to be a threat; that you can side step the [reliably] is also not really a problem at all. The threat comes of getting used to them and taking it for granted that you will easily win ~and then you backpedal into a dead-end hall, alcove; or suddenly find something behind you or to one side ~blocking your movement; be it another threat, wall, or a pit.

I too would like to see a bit of improvement to the AI ~at least for presumably cunning creatures; Spiders and Uggardian ~not so much slimes and golems.

Isaac wrote:

Phitt wrote:Mainly I would like to see the following things:
...

Remember a single enemy is fighting four adventurers ~it's 4 against 1 almost all of the time. Single enemies do not need to be a threat; that you can side step the [reliably] is also not really a problem at all. The threat comes of getting used to them and taking it for granted that you will easily win ~and then you backpedal into a dead-end hall, alcove; or suddenly find something behind you or to one side ~blocking your movement; be it another threat, wall, or a pit.

I too would like to see a bit of improvement to the AI ~at least for presumably cunning creatures; Spiders and Uggardian ~not so much slimes and golems.

In real life it would be human vs human, but a large creature like an Ogre or Warden should be a threat even for a whole adventurer party. The same is true for creatures that should be faster and more agile than a human, like the flying creatures, spiders etc. Generally the problem is not the amount of power - the problem is that enemies can't hit you at all if they're on their own. Of course a spider shouldn't be able to kill a level 10 party, but at least it should be able to hit someone. The way it works now single creatures (and also multiple creatures as long as you can fight them one by one) are simply food for leveling up and nothing else. Which makes the combat a bit boring at times. What is all the equipment and all the leveling up for if I don't even need it in 95% of fights (other than reducing the time it takes to defeat an enemy)?

And it never happened to me that I backpedaled into a dead end while fighting a single enemy. All you need is a location with 2x2 squares, no need to backpedal anywhere.

I hope that we'll be able to adjust all the stats of creatures with the editor, I think a much faster turning/attack speed and faster movement for most creatures would help a lot already. If nothing helps adjusting the animations should work at least, if that is possible.

Phitt wrote:In real life it would be human vs human, but a large creature like an Ogre or Warden should be a threat even for a whole adventurer party.

They do, an Ogre hits 3 or four at a time; Golems too (I think).

And it never happened to me that I backpedaled into a dead end while fighting a single enemy. All you need is a location with 2x2 squares, no need to backpedal anywhere.

But you don't always have that; and even if you do, many times you have two or more moving nearby.

I hope that we'll be able to adjust all the stats of creatures with the editor, I think a much faster turning/attack speed and faster movement for most creatures would help a lot already. If nothing helps adjusting the animations should work at least, if that is possible.

Likely I think, (and welcome too).

What I wish they would do in the patch is to implement what Eye of the Beholder did waaay back then; and that is to allow single monsters [the smaller ones] to coexist on the same tile. In EOB, you would see them fall into place alongside the others... Moving from center tile, to one side/ to the front or the back.

Isaac wrote:

Phitt wrote:In real life it would be human vs human, but a large creature like an Ogre or Warden should be a threat even for a whole adventurer party.

They do, an Ogre hits 3 or four at a time; Golems too (I think).

But that is what I'm talking about, it doesn't matter if they can theoretically kill your whole party with a few hits if they never hit you. Even if an Ogre would instantly kill my party with a single hit I would still defeat it without problems.

And it never happened to me that I backpedaled into a dead end while fighting a single enemy. All you need is a location with 2x2 squares, no need to backpedal anywhere.

But you don't always have that; and even if you do, many times you have two or more moving nearby.

Somewhere you always have a location like that, you don't even have to walk far to reach it - no matter where you are. Enemies only start to follow you if you get either really close or if you hurt them. It's incredibly easy to single out an enemy from a group, kill it and move on to the next enemy. The only occasions where it's not possible are ambushes/traps, like in one location where you pick up a key, the door closes and half a dozen creatures appear and attack you. That's challenging and in these cases you need the best armor and weapons and possibly even health potions. But other than that - no. And that's a shame, as combat is a rather big part of the game. Puzzles and exploring are more important and some of the combat is good, but it's still a shame (imo).

I hope that we'll be able to adjust all the stats of creatures with the editor, I think a much faster turning/attack speed and faster movement for most creatures would help a lot already. If nothing helps adjusting the animations should work at least, if that is possible.

Likely I think, (and welcome too).

What I wish they would do in the patch is to implement what Eye of the Beholder did waaay back then; and that is to allow single monsters [the smaller ones] to coexist on the same tile. In EOB, you would see them fall into place alongside the others... Moving from center tile, to one side/ to the front or the back.

Hope so too.

EDIT: I thought a bit more about it and I think there are two main reasons why combat vs a single enemy doesn't really work. First of all your party can attack without any drawback. You can still move immediately after or even while attacking, enemies on the other hand have to perform an attack animation each time they attack and while they move from one tile to the other they can't attack at all. This is a huge advantage for the player. Secondly most enemies can't strafe and even if they can (crabs for example) they still stop for a while after they reached their destination before they attack. The player can strafe left and right, dodging any incoming attacks easily while he's still able to attack. Enemies have to move, then turn, then perform their attack animation. That simply takes far too long. Basically it is like playing football against someone with only one leg.

To get rid of these problems I would change a few things. When you attack (with any party member, including those with ranged weapons) you can't move for a short while, like 1 second. To give the player a bit of feedback the screen could 'shake' mildly for the duration of the attack, similar to when you step on a pressure plate. Plus you couldn't attack while moving at all. Then I would increase the turning speed of enemies drastically and reduce the delay between actions (moving, turning, attacking). Or I would add a strafing animation to all enemies so they could move just like the player's party.

Phitt wrote:...

The player [party] is the only thing in the dungeon that must endure repeated and continuous assault throughout the entire game. IMO the player should generally have the upper hand for most of the game; occasionally having a serious threat take them on. This [to me] makes for smoother gameplay... and a generally more fun experience overall.

If the party was on equal footing with any single threat, they would be at severe disadvantage against two or more at a time. IMO the combat in this game ~being so frequent... should not actually be much of a challenge for any encounter against a single entity ~until they meet up with a [far less frequent] boss monster.

Isaac wrote:

Phitt wrote:...

The player [party] is the only thing in the dungeon that must endure repeated and continuous assault throughout the entire game. IMO the player should generally have the upper hand for most of the game; occasionally having a serious threat take them on. This [to me] makes for smoother gameplay... and a generally more fun experience overall.

If the party was on equal footing with any single threat, they would be at severe disadvantage against two or more at a time. IMO the combat in this game ~being so frequent... should not actually be much of a challenge for any encounter against a single entity ~until they meet up with a [far less frequent] boss monster.

I can only repeat myself, it's not about being on equal footing, in fact I think the monsters in this game would even be far too tough if you had to fight them 1 vs 1 all the time without being able to dodge. The problem is that the monsters can't hit you at all. Never. No. They simply don't hit, not even once, unless you are extremely careless. And that is no exaggeration, and it doesn't take any kind of quick reflexes for that. And that is the problem I have. I don't want to get owned by every single enemy, but I think there should be a use for health potions and all the cool equipment you find. It's simply what I noticed while playing the game, 95% of fights are about running around in circles (or better squares) without getting hit. Why even have combat with all the nice equipment and all the cool looking enemies when they can't even hit you. I (and anyone else with the reflexes of an average 5 year old kid) could defeat a Warden, a Goromorg or any other high level enemy with a party of level 1 characters. It would take quite some time due to their high health and the low damage caused by my party, but it wouldn't be a problem at all. That simply shouldn't be the case imo.

I guess we can agree to disagree though, I'm not going to force my opinion on you. I think I made my point and that's the one big complaint I have about the game. I would like to see it changed and I tried to give some feedback (since this is one of the few games where devs apparently still listen to their customers and come to the forum, which is great). The game is fantastic as it is already, but imo it could be even better with better combat mechanics.

When playing the old-school dungeon crawler games I always felt like I was cheating when abusing movement to avoid getting hit. I can definitely see where Phitt is coming from, and while I really like LoG, I too am not the biggest fan of the whole square dancing thing for the same reasons. You have this warrior in your group who finds all this armor and specialises in using it, but he almost never gets to make use of it because he's never hit. And in the few instances he gets in a position where he can't dodge, he gets completely decimated anyway. It doesn't sit quite right with me.

The dungeon designer does have options on his hands to put the player in situations where dodging isn't possible. But from my experience playing through LoG on Hard, front line people tend to die in these situations more often than not even with liberal potion chuggage and defensive specialisation.

Phitt wrote:I can only repeat myself, it's not about being on equal footing, in fact I think the monsters in this game would even be far too tough if you had to fight them 1 vs 1 all the time without being able to dodge. The problem is that the monsters can't hit you at all. Never.

After playing the game to completion I can only say that this is not true. Did you play to the end without injury? Did you complete the game without a death in the party(?); without four deaths?