Grimrock

petri wrote:My point was: random dungeons are more fun in topdown/isometric perspective. I'm trying to imagine myself exploring a random dungeon in first person perspective but I'm having a hard time finding the fun in that. Thinking this through looking for ways to add fun back to this game always gets me to the same logical conclusion: this game has been made before and it's called Diablo.

I think a much greater variety of loot and dungeon assets would be needed, because it would be hard to make randomly generated puzzles stay interesting.

petri wrote:The only doubt I have about random dungeon generation is, is it fun? It works great in roguelikes, e.g. ADOM, because you can see the whole explored map all the time, but what about when you only see a tiny sliver of the randomly generated level (the viewpoint in LoG)?

In a lot of ways I think we can still use LoG as it is to imagine what a random dungeon generator might be like to play. I understand a lot of the fun is to do with the challenges the level designs present and the puzzles, and that a random dungeon wont be able to imitate that. But a large part of playing LoG is fighting monsters, building character strengths strategically and managing resources, all of which should work fine for a random dungeon. So it would be a lot like playing LoG for the first time but without the same depth in puzzle challenges and level layout. On the other hand random loot in some ways would have a little bit more depth because it wouldn't need to be planned out with the same balance the original game had. because the player might get lucky one play through with really good loot and on another only get relatively useless or even bad loot.

petri wrote: Approaching the issue from another angle:
Because there is no intelligent design in randomly generated levels you become easily lost. Therefore the next logical step would be to add an automap that is always visible on the screen. And then suddenly you're moving around on the map, and the 3D view becomes more or less a gimmick. So why not get rid of the 3D first person view and make the auto map really pretty with a topdown/isometric view, with animated player character, etc.? Hmm, this reminds me of some pretty famous diabolical game...

Well, i think there would be two ways to approach that, the first would be to use the same system as Dungeon hack where there was a map of the whole dungeon (explored regions) and a mini map that only had some of the surroundings. The second option would be to leave the map system as it is. I found i've gotten lost in LoG often and have had to rely heavily on the map and that didn't ruin immersion for me. It would also provide a real challenge to those types of players who used the no map option for LoG.

I loved diablo, I played that game a lot, I even started again a couple of years back and made a few level 40 characters but a random dungeon generator for LoG doesn't have to be a diablo clone. I think the grid based movement in LoG makes combat quite a bit different from diablo as well as the level designs not being as spacious as Diablo dungeons tended to be. I think even randomizing loot would still be a bit different too, because of the skill trees for weapons (axes, swords etc.) is different from diablo where the stats were about strength, dex etc. without specialization. So finding an axe in LoG would be quite different from finding one in diablo. There is also a big difference between being able to leave the dungeon in Diablo and trading with the towns people compared to LoG where the player is stuck in the dungeon the whole time.

I can't really say what other people are looking for in such a system but those are a few of my thoughts.

I think the point I want to make here is. After all the mods and hand mades have come and gone it will be the Random Dungeon Generator that will make me dust LoG off years a later to kick around. Much like I do with Dungeon Hack.

I believe a random dungeon with Grimrock's gameplay could prove to play quite differently from Diablo. The first-person, party-based, grid based movement, and atmospheric feeling are not something you'd find in Diablo- plus there won't be a city to come back to.
Also there should be permadeath if you really want to keep it interesting.

If it worked for Dungeon Hack, I'm almost certain it will work for this as well.

You could have a global scoreboard- people could check out who delved the deepest into the dungeon. There could be extra hardcore modes that would act as score multipliers- ie going in alone instead of as a party, having the automap disabled, etc.

I'm just throwing ideas here- but I honestly believe this kind of feature could keep people coming back in between expansions\DLCs\Fan maps.

Basically, I don't know if you have time to code this kind of thing- But I think it could prove benefitial and different from Games like Diablo.

I'll keep periodically returning to check for the addition of a random dungeon generator and permanent death, until then, I'll wait to purchase the game.

Jack Dandy wrote:I believe a random dungeon with Grimrock's gameplay could prove to play quite differently from Diablo. The first-person, party-based, grid based movement, and atmospheric feeling are not something you'd find in Diablo- plus there won't be a city to come back to.
Also there should be permadeath if you really want to keep it interesting.

If it worked for Dungeon Hack, I'm almost certain it will work for this as well.

You could have a global scoreboard- people could check out who delved the deepest into the dungeon. There could be extra hardcore modes that would act as score multipliers- ie going in alone instead of as a party, having the automap disabled, etc.

I'm just throwing ideas here- but I honestly believe this kind of feature could keep people coming back in between expansions\DLCs\Fan maps.

Basically, I don't know if you have time to code this kind of thing- But I think it could prove benefitial and different from Games like Diablo.

Of course it would be different from Diablo! Games like Eye of the Beholder and Dungeon Hack are worlds different, Diablo is more akin to Guantlet.

It says alot when there are so many people clamoring for these features.

1 random dungeon generator
2 see how far you can take your party...permadeath
3 a little more loot
4 leadearboards ( not reaally needed but it would be fun)

this is what is needed in my opinion with the random dungeon generator, a different way of playing this amazing game, and then of course the devs will still give us more of the main game and a level editor, i will happily purchase more dungeons from the devs

fffff

I also love Dungeon Hack, and was hoping that LoG would have a random dungeon generator. But, if the map format is documented (for eg. modding), other people can create the random dungeon generator. This is how Dungeon Hack worked; it executed a separate program to generate the dungeons.

I sure would like to take a stab at random dungeon generator...

Can we have docs for the map format, please?

I never liked at all the Dungeon Hack appoach to randomization. But I ever liked the Diablo System.

On Dungeon Hack the Dungeons were just no sense huge maps. No sense empty rooms because of the direct creation of the maze and I had no interest or hope to find something different from a huge map with the only sense of the map itself .
When you had the map nearly explored the game did give you the stairs to the next level.

At first I did like it but once you discover the mechanism behind you lose interest and the game loses the reason of existance, this is, replayability and long life game.

So nowadays I consider the approaching to a similar game should be a mixing of hand made and random things, and my guessing is the diablo appoach is something like that, but I am not sure. At least the feeling of randomization into diablo is not so annoying or "visible"

Greetings