Grimrock

Azel wrote:

Isaac wrote:I think that the real ~honest~ reason for the lack of those hotkeys is that it's ~deliberately~ meant as part of the challenge. The very concept of making it easier with dedicated hotkeys, goes against premise. This would be my assumption; based on crawlers in general, and past dev comments. They would have to comment whether it's accurate truth.

You're probably right, but in my opinion that is "making something hard for the wrong reasons." Example: right now we can find hidden wall switches by looking at specific differences in a brick. This allows for quick scanning of walls. However, imagine if the game eliminated this and "every single brick on a wall" had the potential to be a hidden switch?? With zero identifying marks, patterns, or blemishes to help identify a switch? That would be making something hard for the wrong reasons.

There is slightly too much emphasis on using the "mouse" for absolutely everything in this game. An even balance of mouse/keyboard during combat would add a level of sophistication. Just my opinion tho

I would say that there can't be that in a dungeon crawler; they were designed to show off the mouse.

*It was the hotkeys that ruined Eye of the Beholder ~somewhat; while I too (and most everyone else) do use the movement keys for convenience... were we all restricted to the mouse-movement buttons, then the infamous 'square dance' in combat would be nearly impossible to pull off consistently; it is managed by clicking attacks ~practically while moving; by using hotkeys and the mouse attacks at nearly the same time.... but were the game played with the mouse ~or~ keyboard [instead of ~and~ keyboard], then players could not both move and attack.

In EoB, there was a hotkey for 'use'; as in press the button... whether it was hidden, or plainly visible. It meant that all you had to do was press the key, and the wall was checked, and/or the button was pressed.

While it's certainly possible, and seems like an improvement... I think that in practice, the fact that there is a slightly visible button at all, is sufficient; counterintuitivly... having to carefully scrutinize every wall for the tiniest differences ~or no differences (with manual pressing of stones), would quickly shift into the realm of un-fun, and make secrets become consistently missed by all. The point is not to have an invisible button, but instead is to have a noticeable difference to spot ~maybe; I have seen experienced modders pass by secret buttons as they are. Players should be able to see them in passing, and especially when directly scanning the wall in front of them. To do it such that secret buttons would be hidden until randomly press by chance, is to needlessly complicate things, and makes secrets a chore.

*That's not to say that I wouldn't prefer it at the top difficulty level seen in the deepest dungeons... but IMO there are usually only two times when one should include a truly indistinguishable button or passage; and these are if they have implemented PC stat checks ~having that PCs can notice and point these thing's out; or for when the player is meant to be trapped in a small space, and must find it by process of elimination.

Isaac wrote:I would say that there can't be that in a dungeon crawler; they were designed to show off the mouse.

Showing off the mouse is one thing, relying solely on the mouse and makings things difficult for the wrong reasons is something entirely different. Besides, your assessment on the use of a Mouse in a dungeon crawler applies more strictly to "Hack n Slash" games (eg, the Diablo series). Grimrock is not a strict dungeon crawler (you are above ground most of the time in LoG2) and it is definitely not a hack n slash game; LoG is a tribute to grid-based gaming. The hack n slash genre ends up needing an overuse of hotkeys due to the fact that the Mouse was being used for everything (walking, aiming, casting, attacking, inventory, NPS interaction, etc). I think when a game finds that perfect balance between mouse vs keyboard you have something more sophisticated.

I agree with your assessment in regards to how hidden switches in walls should be implemented. My point, however, is that the same logic should be applied to game mechanics (mouse, keyboard). Just like finding hidden switches should avoid being a "realm of un-fun" ... so should the reliance on the Mouse

Azel wrote:Besides, your assessment on the use of a Mouse in a dungeon crawler applies more strictly to "Hack n Slash" games (eg, the Diablo series). Grimrock is not a strict dungeon crawler (you are above ground most of the time in LoG2) and it is definitely not a hack n slash game; LoG is a tribute to grid-based gaming.

Ah but you have it backwards, Dungeoncrawlers are the first person 'crawls' through the tunnels; they are puzzle games with combat; not the hack-n-slash games like Diablo.

I agree with your assessment in regards to how hidden switches in walls should be implemented. My point, however, is that the same logic should be applied to game mechanics (mouse, keyboard). Just like finding hidden switches should avoid being a "realm of un-fun" ... so should the reliance on the Mouse

Nowadays, the only difference between a top-down hack n slash and a traditional dungeon crawl is... the Mouse Scroller

Probably too much generalization involved with my statement; I just know that for me I tend to stay away from hack n slash games (I retired after Diablo 2) due to the heavy reliance on the Mouse. Not even Hotkeys could save it for me. Personal preference I guess. Then again, this is the "wishlist" thread!

Secret walls with no distinguishing characteristics... sounds like secrets in Wolfenstein 3D. Hold down space, and zoom along a wall section.

I agree that keyboard shortcuts would be ideal for quick combat. As for moving and using shortcuts, it is entirely possible. Consider that there are many FPSs out there with an insane number of keyboard shortcuts and they manage to move and fight at the same time. Also, I didn't know that dancing around on a grid, was a feature players were supposed to do. I always just stood in one spot and tanked them down, like in typical dungeon crawlers of my era.

As for my own wishlist of improvements:

-> A counter on each map that tells me how many secrets I have found.
-> An option to reduce amount of foliage in outdoor sections to improve my framerate.
-> Allowing an user with Heavy Weapons 5 and Light Weapons 5 to wield a 2hander in one hand (main hand), and dual wield with a Light Weapon in their other hand (offhand).
-> Increasing the number of shurikens and throwing axes to be found in the game for strength-oriented throwing builds.
-> Allowing willpower to increase the damage dealt with spells, or increase their duration, for non-damaging spells.
-> Making all heavy weapons twohanded weapons, and increasing their overall damage as a result.
-> Giving the player a Repeating Crossbow, that fires 5 bolts in quick succession as the charged attack, and has a faster attack speed than the regular crossbow.

Palandus wrote:Secret walls with no distinguishing characteristics... sounds like secrets in Wolfenstein 3D. Hold down space, and zoom along a wall section.

I agree that keyboard shortcuts would be ideal for quick combat. As for moving and using shortcuts, it is entirely possible. Consider that there are many FPSs out there with an insane number of keyboard shortcuts and they manage to move and fight at the same time. Also, I didn't know that dancing around on a grid, was a feature players were supposed to do. I always just stood in one spot and tanked them down, like in typical dungeon crawlers of my era.

I'd say it was actually the reverse... and that ideally, players are not encouraged to do any of those.

Palandus wrote:-> Allowing an user with Heavy Weapons 5 and Light Weapons 5 to wield a 2hander in one hand (main hand), and dual wield with a Light Weapon in their other hand (offhand).

This is already true, if the 2-hander is a light weapon.

Why not just simply ability to dual 2 heavy weapons? If you spent 10 points in that cause already you deserve
something with a punch. Plus, I don't think it would be all that imbalanced considering -40% and long cooldowns.