Grimrock

Xorg wrote:The problem is that this is no longer the day when Wizardry was the only game in town or it was cutting edge.

To compete for attention and dollars now and today, games need a mass appeal.

Grimmrock won't sell to people who are used to more these days.... the main audience is people like me - who played 20+ years ago - and want out kids to experience what we did.

But *not* with all of the hassles. Because we can do better these days - so lets play for enjoyment and entertainment, bring over all that was good, dump or avoid that which was bad (and way too time consuming - for no real reason.)

It's not fun when my 10 year old dies 27 times and finally gives up and says "this is a stupid game." or he has to call me over every ten minutes because a puzzle is so hard, even I have to look at a walkthrough and get tired of the arcade element or am left thinking "who the heck would ever figure that out?"

Please know, I love this game, but the initial appeal has worn off quickly, because of the above.

So the game is not allowed to be too difficult for your 10 year old? Is this a freaking joke or something? You can't possibly be serious. This game was targeted at fans of the classic real time dungeon crawler games, not their small children.

Xorg wrote: To compete for attention and dollars now and today, games need a mass appeal.

Success!
Old-school RPG Legend of Grimrock covers dev costs in a few days

Xorg wrote: Grimmrock won't sell to people who are used to more these days.

I'm a fairly hardcore gamer; have been since the early 80s when I picked up my first console(intellivision) and computer(c64). I play a wide variety of the shinny polished games and a few of the unpolished ones. My main game is World of Warcraft which has one of best UIs of any game I have ever played and falls into the category of a game that has me "used to more" used to a hell of a lot more. I and many of the people I know through WoW absolutely LOVED Grimrock; a group of people that also played Skyrim, Mass Effect 3 and currently are fixated on Diablo 3. For a week or two Grimrock was as popular as "arrow to the knee" jokes were back in November. Your statement is false.

Xorg wrote: ... the main audience is people like me - who played 20+ years ago - and want out kids to experience what we did.

I can see the design meeting: Ok guys, we're shooting for the "people who played these games 20+ years ago and want their kids to experience what they did" market segment. Make it happen! That's the bulk of the gaming market. Lets make sure we lock it down. We can worry about all the other gamers later.

Good content for a Dilbert comic.

Xorg wrote: But *not* with all of the hassles. Because we can do better these days - so lets play for enjoyment and entertainment, bring over all that was good, dump or avoid that which was bad (and way too time consuming - for no real reason.)

What you refer to as hassles others refer to as challenges. AH did do better. The positive reviews(I don't remember seeing even one negative review), popularity of the game on a variety of websites along with their sales is a testament to how well they did in fact do.

Xorg wrote:It's not fun when my 10 year old dies 27 times and finally gives up and says "this is a stupid game." or he has to call me over every ten minutes because a puzzle is so hard

Sadly I have to agree with those saying that LoG has not been designed for 10 year old kids. I'm not surprised he says "this is a stupid game".

If you don't mind MMO, try Wizard101 - it's great, award-winning family game with interesting turned-based combat system somewhat similar to Magic the Gathering (you got different schools of magic, you build your decks for different occasions and so on). I know lots of people playing it with kids (even younger then 10 years old). Actually it's very family friendly game, where grandparents can play together with their grandchildren. Actually what is so great about Wizard101 is the fact that not only kids love it - the game is enjoyable also for adults (including myself). Game is kids-friendly but it's still challenging, it learns teamwork and strategic thinking.

I was at most 2 years older when I played EoB1, which was a lot less forgiving than LoG is, even having the possibility to save when you are stuck and unable to complete the game (with only 1 save slot, that means restart from go). However, back then, dying and loading/starting over was a common feature in games. Nowadays games are a lot more streamlined, which I guess is nice for kids, but that also means that they're no longer used to dying a lot in these kind of games.

However, I do agree with the others that not every single game can appeal to every single player. Especially indie games like these are a nice step away from the masses, aimed at those people that do like a challenge.

Xorg wrote: It's not fun when my 10 year old dies 27 times and finally gives up and says "this is a stupid game." or he has to call me over every ten minutes because a puzzle is so hard, even I have to look at a walkthrough and get tired of the arcade element or am left thinking "who the heck would ever figure that out?"

Game is already too simple. With level 1 character you can "win" over lvl 999 (enemies dont have levels, but if they did) enemies just by simple "dancing" around them.

They already made game TOO easy - because no party selection, no builds, no skills, no items, no stats do matter in the long run, only your ability to "dance" -, but you want to butcher it more?

Whisper wrote:

Xorg wrote: It's not fun when my 10 year old dies 27 times and finally gives up and says "this is a stupid game." or he has to call me over every ten minutes because a puzzle is so hard, even I have to look at a walkthrough and get tired of the arcade element or am left thinking "who the heck would ever figure that out?"

Game is already too simple. With level 1 character you can "win" over lvl 999 (enemies dont have levels, but if they did) enemies just by simple "dancing" around them.

They already made game TOO easy - because no party selection, no builds, no skills, no items, no stats do matter in the long run, only your ability to "dance" -, but you want to butcher it more?

I think you oversimplify things. There are certains cases where you not only dancing around is impossible due to confined space, but even moving back and forth is difficult. A notable case I remember the fighting challenge! Nevertheless I think that the game's difficulty is fair. Hard Mode, which I played is quite challenging. Moreover I think that the new generation should become more patient and relay more on its wits, rather than reflexes and simple button clicking. What it means this is a stupid game? New kids were given everything too easy and they think that would be always the case. We were also kids, and play such games (like grimrock), all the time and didn't argue about them.

Greco wrote:

Whisper wrote:

Xorg wrote: What it means this is a stupid game? New kids were given everything too easy and they think that would be always the case. We were also kids, and play such games (like grimrock), all the time and didn't argue about them.

I would continue at this point. It is useless to discuss who is right and who is wrong, if the game is too easy or too hard. It was already said that every gamer has different requirements.

I would kindly suggest you Xorg, just to tell your kid that, unfortunately, he will have to do this on his own. Not always you will be there for him to help him. I know that this is just a "stupid unimportant game" but the principle in live is the same. What is more, if he can test his self-sufficiency on harmless things like this, even better. Well and if he will not be able to deal with the game, OK, sometimes it is not the right time, maybe next year he will return and complete it, or after two years, who knows. It is the same like many players have to leave a monster or puzzle and go levelling somewhere else to beat it later. Personally I also think that for 10 years kid the game is too hard. However, kids nowadays learn very fast, so it is possible that in several years he can be a guy who will give advices to us on forums

Greco wrote: There are certains cases where you not only dancing around is impossible due to confined space, but even moving back and forth is difficult. A notable case I remember the fighting challenge!

1 is not equal to "certain" cases. Its exception to the rule (and its completely optional).

Greco wrote: Hard Mode, which I played is quite challenging.

Difference from Easy mode to Hard mode is amount of times spend "dancing" per mob.
Everything else in combat is exactly same, you will still be dancing around mobs, both on Easy and on Hard.

Greco wrote: Hard Mode, which I played is quite challenging. Moreover I think that the new generation should become more patient and relay more on its wits, rather than reflexes and simple button clicking.

Wits = planning party setup, managing equipment and expandable resources, thinking over skill selection.
Reflexes and simple button clicking = "dancing" around mobs.

Now we got to game problem. You dont need any wits if you keep simple button clicking (2x2 dancing).

Greco wrote: What it means this is a stupid game? New kids were given everything too easy and they think that would be always the case. We were also kids, and play such games (like grimrock), all the time and didn't argue about them.

While not asking to make combat challenging for all, kids included (IF 2x2 dancing is limited and not Key To Win Every Combat, as now - then game would be challenging), we just ask to give difficulty with limited 2x2 dancing efficiency. So that Wits would matter more then Relfexes and simple button clicking, in your words.

MasterPJ wrote:
I would kindly suggest you Xorg, just to tell your kid that, unfortunately, he will have to do this on his own. Not always you will be there for him to help him. I know that this is just a "stupid unimportant game" but the principle in live is the same. What is more, if he can test his self-sufficiency on harmless things like this, even better. Well and if he will not be able to deal with the game, OK, sometimes it is not the right time, maybe next year he will return and complete it, or after two years, who knows. It is the same like many players have to leave a monster or puzzle and go levelling somewhere else to beat it later. Personally I also think that for 10 years kid the game is too hard. However, kids nowadays learn very fast, so it is possible that in several years he can be a guy who will give advices to us on forums

That was my experience of playing the original Dungeon Master, I was 8 when I first got my hands on it and 11 when I completed it. But in those days people didn't always expect to play games to completion - in fact I remember it being quite a badge of honour if you had completed a game, but that was the golden age of adventure gaming and games are different 20 years later - AAA games have been refined for maximum entertainment, not maximum challenge and people buy games for their kids to keep them occupied, not to stimulate them.

Whisper wrote:Wits = planning party setup, managing equipment and expandable resources, thinking over skill selection.

No, lol. That's accountancy.

Yes, the combat in Grimrock is a test of reflexes, as are 2 or 3 of the puzzles. Most of the puzzles are a test of wits, and being able to navigate your way around the dungeon without a map is 50% of the game in itself. If you remove the combat from 99% of RPGs made in the last 7 or 8 years there's little more to them than a nice stroll through some pretty backdrops, with a bit of a story thrown in.