Grimrock

RedOwl wrote:And I think you are overestimating value of pure on paper END GAME output and discounting all the value from start mid game, protection and health gain from armor skills and ability switch front and last rows of chars around as I do.

But that is how builds are evaluated. Your build may be stronger at the start with its high health and stats but it becomes increasingly more stale as the game progresses. It does not get any really good abilities as you level up like ranged rogues double attack. I suspect later levels would be pretty challenging with your set up. I honestly think you would run out of ammo against the last levels warden golems. Early game is pretty easy no matter what build you are using anyway so no reason to base your characters on that.

Poomermon wrote:But that is how builds are evaluated.
...
It does not get any really good abilities as you level up like ranged rogues double attack.

You state these opinions as fact, just as the title of this thread is incorrectly stated as a fact.
The thread title should remove the word "most."

This is still an interesting different take on building a party. Just because *you* like the rogue's double attack doesn't mean that's the only or even the best way to build a party. Different players may want to be able to take a couple hits in case they miss a dodge (It happens...)

It seems like you guys are arguing pretty extreme positions with a dogmatic zealousness far beyond what's called for. His 4 tank party does less damage but has a lot more survivability than a "dps is all that matters" party. Until I try it, I can't say for sure which is better, but I do know that this argument is about as useful as beating a dead horse with a dead cat.

oodyboo wrote:

Poomermon wrote:But that is how builds are evaluated.
...
It does not get any really good abilities as you level up like ranged rogues double attack.

You state these opinions as fact, just as the title of this thread is incorrectly stated as a fact.

Then allow me to explain in detail. Builds are evaluated at the endgame because the game is the hardest at the endgame. It is the litmus test of builds. Even a suboptimal build can do well on mid-game but can run into trouble on endgame. Unless the build is completely horrible at early or midgame it is not even worth mentioning. This is essentially a min-maxing thread and when people min-max they think about the endgame every time.

Also rogues double attack literally doubles his dps. It is essentially the same ability sword fighters get at 50 skill points but ranged rogues get it in midgame. That is a huge boost in any context. This is not a subjective opinion. It is a fact unless you want to argue otherwise.

oodyboo wrote:Oh and Empyrean, YOU are clearly the stupid one (and closed-minded) for not only starting off your argument ad hominem, but repeating it again at the end. His party may not suit your play style, but that does not mean he is stupid.

Oh look, yet another idiot who doesn't know what "ad hominem" actually means.

Here's the crash course: if I insult someone in the course of attacking their argument, that's not an ad hominem. If I were to say "You're stupid, so this can't be right" then that would be an ad hominem. If I say "The math doesn't work out the way you think it does and you're stupid" then that is not an ad hominem.

Maybe in the future you won't use terms you don't understand. In the meantime, read this: http://plover.net/~bonds/adhominem.html

And RedOwl is still stupid, but others are doing a decent job of picking apart his claims with math, so the point stands without more people duplicating their conclusions.

I've already warned you guys, please no flame wars on the forums, we like to keep things friendly here.

Locked.

Daniel.