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Re: any chance of a random dungeon generator in the future?
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:34 pm
by hansolo
FanofGrimrock wrote:Just wanted to add my two cents, as a dungeon generator was the main thing i was really hoping for when i first learned of LoG. Although I think AH have done a wonderful job with their hand made dungeon. So here are my a few of my thoughts, which i should mention are strongly influenced by my experience with playing Dungeon Hack.
The main complaint i've noticed against this idea is that the puzzles wont nearly be the same quality, and while I agree that is true, I don't really think puzzles are the main point of a random dungeon generator to begin with. A few people have suggested implementing pre made puzzles, that have variations, in to the generator might be one solution but I realise that might be asking a bit too much.
I think for a random dungeon generator type level, lock and key type puzzles would suffice. A few other variations are available too, such as walls that move when a hidden button is pressed, but by no means do these need to be complicated, well thought out puzzles like in LoG. They just need to be enough to encourage some exploration outside of "find the stair case down" and to break up killing monsters.
But rather than counter the few other points people have against the idea, i'd aslo like to make a few points myself on why a random dungeon generator can be a really good thing. First of all the nature of randomizing items (having both positive and negative attributes) within a random dungeon makes things interesting because constant exploration is not always rewarded but sometimes even penalised. What I mean is, in LoG i noticed it has ALWAYS been worth my while to explore more and find items, there is no trade off in terms of risking failure.
While on the other hand in a random dungeon, exploration could mean encountering monsters that I have no chance of defeating or finding an interesting item which is actually cursed or in some other way negative for my character. I find these sorts of gambles exciting and immersive, so while people might complain that these sort of dungeons don't make sense in the same way as a hand crafted ones, i find that's what makes them interesting
Hand crafted maps after a while start to become predictable and when they're not, it's because you're not following the designers 'sense' for the map and they can become quite frustrating. If we're talking about this being done in a "rogue like" fashion, there is no point where ones entire ability to enjoy the game can grind to a halt because they can't beat a monster or pass a puzzle, you can always start a new game and have a different adventure.
So while LoG is very much about solving puzzles and utilizing the items you do come across to the best of your advantage, a rogue like random dungeon would be more about taking risks and just fighting monsters untill you're either lucky enough to get to the end or you die, and this can be done over and over because the point isn't really to beat the game but to see how long you can survive (i'm imagining perma death with a random dungeon generator).
To sum it up, a random dungeon generator can't give the same experience as when you first played LoG over and over and it can't give you the same quality puzzles but it can make for an exciting game with massive replayability.
P.S.
It seems a lot of the people against this idea, are just more excited by the idea of hand crafted maps, which is fine, but i'm excited by random maps, random items and knowing i'm up against a challenge my characters probably wont survive. I really hope we get both
u said what i wanted to say, my english is not as good as yours, what u said is perfect, i hope the devs will listen
Re: any chance of a random dungeon generator in the future?
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:38 pm
by Jack Dandy
Well, think about it like this, Petri.
Even in the hand crafted levels, you can get lost if you don't use the map.
With a random dungeon mode, the puzzle focus would be nearly eliminated, and the focus will instead be on party builds, finding random loot, item management, battles, etc. (And naturally, it will have permadeath)
A lot of people really like this sort of feature in games. Remember, Dungeon Hack did the same thing and a whole bunch of people liked it.
I really think it could work.
But then again, I can't really know if it'll be fun until I try it myself.
I suggest (If it's not too much trouble) you work out a relatively simple random dungeon generator, and play it yourself, see if it's good. Put in some keys, secret rooms that have +2 swords or potions or whatever, some "monster trap" rooms.. See how far down you can get to before getting killed (You'd need to figure out some "bad situation" the players would really have to give it his all to survive).. See if it's fun or not for yourself.
Re: any chance of a random dungeon generator in the future?
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:19 pm
by PSY
The only game modes I can think of being fun involving random dungeons with random loot:
1. Escape from the dungeon before it collapses (time limit)
2. Find a special item within a specified time limit
3. Find and kill a certain monster within a specified time limit
PSY
Re: any chance of a random dungeon generator in the future?
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:26 pm
by hansolo
PSY wrote:The only game modes I can think of being fun involving random dungeons with random loot:
1. Escape from the dungeon before it collapses (time limit)
2. Find a special item within a specified time limit
3. Find and kill a certain monster within a specified time limit
PSY
anything with time limit is not good, i like to take my time, think...explore, preparemfor the next attack....
Re: any chance of a random dungeon generator in the future?
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:20 pm
by PSY
hansolo wrote:anything with time limit is not good, i like to take my time, think...explore, preparemfor the next attack....
Me, too.
But due to the lack of brain-teasing riddles, or rather no riddles at all, I personally don't like random dungeons in a dungeon crawler-style game. Kills the spirit somehow ^^
PSY
Re: any chance of a random dungeon generator in the future?
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:20 pm
by Kthanid
petri wrote:The only doubt I have about random dungeon generation is, is it fun?
I can't speak for everyone, but I
loved Dungeon Hack when I was a kid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_Hack
Re: any chance of a random dungeon generator in the future?
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:37 pm
by Xai
Kthanid wrote:petri wrote:The only doubt I have about random dungeon generation is, is it fun?
I can't speak for everyone, but I
loved Dungeon Hack when I was a kid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_Hack
Me too, have it i belive still on my HD somewhere.
Its possible to build-In a hand-made puzzles and mix it with random puzzles in a random dungeon. Its not even too hard to create a random map generator (i have coded one 10-12 years ago in just 11 hours non-stop coding from 0
).
And you can play this game for years, not just 2-3 times, cause after 3rd time you know everything
It can be a 'hand-made' company and a random, so you can chose at start what do you want, play in a full hand made dungeon or generate a new one, like dungeon hack.
Re: any chance of a random dungeon generator in the future?
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:01 pm
by Curunir
Re: any chance of a random dungeon generator in the future?
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:23 pm
by Saice
Kthanid wrote:petri wrote:The only doubt I have about random dungeon generation is, is it fun?
I can't speak for everyone, but I
loved Dungeon Hack when I was a kid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_Hack
Same here.
Random Dungeons are not about complexity or depth.
They are about the fun one offs you want to do. Or the challange of the luck of the draw. Yes some randoms will be utter crap. But thats what awesome about randoms. Just roll a new one and go.
In DH the random builder had a few options you would select like monster density or what sort of puzzles. (all sorts, just keys, just keys on same level) This alowed people to fine tune their random to fit what they wanted to do. Say you just want a quick fix set the number of levels down low the mob denisty high and load it up. Need something longer? Max out the level turn on multi-floor puzzles and go.
edit: I still have DH on my game shelf and still load it up from time to time.
Re: any chance of a random dungeon generator in the future?
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:46 pm
by petri
My point was: random dungeons are more fun in topdown/isometric perspective. I'm trying to imagine myself exploring a random dungeon in first person perspective but I'm having a hard time finding the fun in that. Thinking this through looking for ways to add fun back to this game always gets me to the same logical conclusion: this game has been made before and it's called Diablo.
