Grimrock

wickermoon wrote:And you know what? It is! It is elitism and I don't want any f'kin casual gamer, who's too lazy or too stupid to cope with this game's mechanic, to play this game. I don't want them to play this game as much as I don't want them to play Darksiders. You know why? Because I like hard games where you can't just rush through in about 4 to 5 hours and which cater to actual gamers. I like my games to be hard and challenging and if someone's dad or girlfriend can't cope with the mechanics then maybe this game just isn't for them. So anyone asking (or even worse demanding) changes for those poor little sobs, stop it. This would actually be what I call entitlement. Not everyone is supposed to be able to play everything.

...

Yes, casual gamers (as gamers) bug me. They're a pain in the arse.

Know what else need a high degree of manual dexterity and hand eye co-ordination? Call of duty. Would you say that this means all 20+ million cod players are "hardcore". I guess casuals only play the slow war sims? You didn't present any real argument as to how some kind of alternative to rune clicking in combat would hurt the game or your own experience. Just looks like you had some pent up gamer rage and threw a temper tantrum. High levels of depth and complexity make a game "hardcore", not reflexes and co-ordination.

wickermoon wrote:...While Wizardry 4 sounds awesome (and it really, really does!) the graphics are not for me.
...But I'll have a look around if there are games akin to it, with better graphics, thanks ...

You will find...nothing.
(It is the GRAIL of all Dungeon Crawlers).

rossman86 wrote:Don't know why some people are so quick to grab their pitchforks at the slightest suggestion of change. While I don't agree with the op's suggested solution, I can understand some people's desire for a simpler casting system. This game can demand a fair bit of manual dexterity when your trying to circle strafe a monster, avoid pits, keep you're melee attacks on cooldown and punch in a rune combination on that little pad in the corner of the screen. I'm pretty young and I've been gaming since I was 6 so I didn't have any trouble. But if a non-gamer like my dad or even my gf played this I could see them getting overwhelmed during the more heated battles.

I don't think the op should be vaporized in a torrent of flames for pointing out something that could be improved. If there was no auto mapping and this was about adding an option to have the game map out the areas for you, people would probably be up in arms over that too. But here we are with optional auto maps and nobody's head has exploded yet. Would it really kill anyone if there was a similar game option for one-click spell casts?

It would kill the style of magic. Magic, in settings that use it, a very carefully defined. Grimrock's rune system implies a lot of casters in general, and their use on the battlefield, "one-click-casting" does not, and cannot fairly represent how magic works in the setting. It's not quick, not easy, but 100% consistent in effect, the only point of failure is the caster themselves. Throwing down any system to streamline casting by having the system auto-select runes would either be too powerful as mages deal more damage than any other class, and have more utility available; or it would be more aggravating than current, as it would have to select runes slower than a player, randomly make mistakes in rune selection, and then casts it after a delay, regardless of the enemy's position in order to show the system working as it currently does.

There are pretty much only two solutions to this issue, gut the current system in total and replace it with something else, or ignore the players that have a problem with a "learn to deal". The nature of the complaints prevents compromise.

If your the kind of person that has trouble using the mage effectively with the current system, adding some sort of one click casting option would not make them too powerful as you are probably struggling with the combat to some degree anyway. As someone who didn't have trouble with the current system, I could fire off a 2 rune attack in 1-2 seconds. Anyone good with the current system would not benefit very much even if they chose to use some sort of one-click alternative. You save what? Maybe half a second per cast? That's nothing when you factor in the cooldown on a mage's magic as well as his/her's limited energy.

As long as any change remains optional, I don't see how it hurts anyone else. On the other hand it will certainly improve some people's experiences so I don't see the downside. Anyone who likes this game and wants to see more, should support the addition of any options that would increase enjoyment/accessibility as that usually translates into more sales.

rossman86 wrote:As long as any change remains optional, I don't see how it hurts anyone else. On the other hand it will certainly improve some people's experiences so I don't see the downside. Anyone who likes this game and wants to see more, should support the addition of any options that would increase enjoyment/accessibility as that usually translates into more sales.

At which point is optional optional, though? Should every feature more complex than mainstream titles be "optional"; at which point, why have the more complex features at all, just make the simple mainstream game and be done with it.

Did any of you guys even read my earlier post or is this thread to derailed for this???

Zeful wrote:

rossman86 wrote:As long as any change remains optional, I don't see how it hurts anyone else. On the other hand it will certainly improve some people's experiences so I don't see the downside. Anyone who likes this game and wants to see more, should support the addition of any options that would increase enjoyment/accessibility as that usually translates into more sales.

At which point is optional optional, though? Should every feature more complex than mainstream titles be "optional"; at which point, why have the more complex features at all, just make the simple mainstream game and be done with it.

For one thing it's not complex at all, the spells your using in combat 99% of the time take 1-2 runes. It does not require intellect or patience, just dexterity. The rune casting, while unique, is really just a very small part of the game. We're not talking about an option to remove puzzles here, just something that put's the mage's difficulty on par with the rest of the classes for people who want that option.

2Xmatch: Yeah that's not a bad solution either and it would a more rp friendly idea rather than a box you check off in the options.

These scrolls are not magically enchanted things they are just instrucutions on how to cast a spell.

While there's nothing wrong with asking for spells to be changed, I think the best immediate solution to this problem is to play the game without a mage in your party - or, if you're already deep in the dungeon with one, deck him out in the super-strong light-armor set + shield, rank up Staff Defense, and put him in the front row. I did it on hard, it does work!

The problem with requests like these is that it really is just impossible to satisfy everyone. Different games go for different things, and in this game, the designers wanted spells to feel cumbersome to use, and have much more room for error (on a personal level, not just for the character). They accomplished that. And people who like that sort of thing haven't had the chance to experience it in a game for a very long time, due to "casual appeal."

There is nothing inherently wrong with casual appeal, other than the fact that our games are so utterly, utterly saturated in it. So, for me at least, this has been an awesome change of pace.

Where this REALLY gets tricky, for game designers to answer is... "Should there be an option for this when players start the game, so that everyone can be satisfied?"

It seems at first like the obvious answer would be, "Yes! Make it an option!" But what makes it tricky is that people may be likely to select the less-annoying sounding option, when in reality, there's a chance that the other option may have been more enjoyable for some reason - some bad experiences in games are actually good things to have. That's a tricky one to explain.

But in any case, yeah - turn your mage into a meatshield and focus on your other party members.

Reading over the posts here. I think this could be added in such a way that is not game breaking.

Basically You equip the scroll like a weapon. Click and Poof spell goes. To make it balanced with the current system make it put casting on cool down for a set that is longer then the default casting cool down. So your easy to use comes with the cost of slower casting time/recovery time.

Not saying its a good idea... just an idea.

Personally over all I found magic mostly a waste in this game. Ended up going with no mages at all in my party. Nothing wrong with the casting system mind you. My issue was I just did not see magic being all the much better then melee and range weapons. So opt'd for 2 fighters 2 rogues myself.