Grimrock

Even in the older games I was glad there were ranged attacks, doors, strafing, etc. and other "cheats" that let me steadily earn experience and progress with a suboptimal party, albeit with some scary moments. Picking skill combinations that unbalance the game and let me blast through everything with little difficulty is fun once in a while but it quickly becomes boring. Grinding is tedious and I play Grimrock to get away from that sort of thing.

That said, I found the armor skills mostly useless, and this was depressing to say the least. By the end of the game my full plate clad fighter could tank some weaker enemies but she couldn't stand toe-to-toe with the heavy-hitting ogres and guardians (?), unless you like canned meat. Maybe if I put most points into the armor skill and forgot about doing damage she could tank, but then what use would she have been against magic users?

Currently I'm replaying the game with 4 insectoid mages. Earth/Staff and Air/Staff in front row, plus Fire/Spellcasting and Ice/Spellcasting in the back. Exciting, but memorizing all the spells was annoying and the novelty of entering runes for every spell cast turned into something very tedious. By dungeon level 6, it became more like a reflex; 2x2 strafing crabs and an ogre while casting spells and watching 4 magic meters is feasible, but I still mess up occasionally and poison blast my own party. Heh. The party does fine with most encounters. I have all spells and all 4 damage boost perks now. Crabs fall in 1-2 rounds. Getting cornered is certain death, so I must pick my battles wisely and pay attention to the environment. This playstyle brings new challenges; it's not too easy for me.

Next time I think I will try offensive rogues in the back and defensive fighters in the front, just to see what happens.

Next time I think I will try offensive rogues in the back and defensive fighters in the front, just to see what happens.

I encourage you to try this!

I'm currently running an axe fighter, unarmed rogue, backstabbing backline dagger rogue, and an ice Mage. This requires me to get close on almost every encounter, which is a nice change of pace from running a range-heavy party.

b8w2N7r6Wz0q5e wrote:Exciting, but memorizing all the spells was annoying and the novelty of entering runes for every spell cast turned into something very tedious.

This is what happened with my quad fighter team where I was switching front and back rows all the time... While spreading out the damage is nice, it just wasn't fun.

Disasterrific wrote:

b8w2N7r6Wz0q5e wrote:Exciting, but memorizing all the spells was annoying and the novelty of entering runes for every spell cast turned into something very tedious.

This is what happened with my quad fighter team where I was switching front and back rows all the time... While spreading out the damage is nice, it just wasn't fun.

I did not see this happen at all. In fact, I really like the system and I liked the one in Arx Fatalis too; where magic is almost completely the same mechanics ~except that instead of the rune tablet, the player must draw out the somatic gestures of the runes in the air, in order to cast a spell. In practice, you memorize these and they become 2nd nature... The torch burns out and you flick your wrist to light another, or cast night vision.

I went through this game, on my first try, in hard mode.

Without the ability to 'strafe' in a 4x4 area I would not have made it through. This game is ROUGH on hard mode and straffing is all that kept me and my team alive. Forcing a team to go toe-to-toe on hard mode is absolute killed. Doing the golden grave event, is the hardest thing I've ever had to do, because I was backed into a corner, armor skill is worthless, I was limping through that event when my warrior got a lucky crit with his dismantaler. YAY!

No, so please so get rid of this feature. I have played few games like this in my age, and I loved Grimrock, making me an instant fan of square based vid games like this. This game made me think in ways I have never considered before, making it the mose enjoyable playtime of my life.

Except level 9.

I hate you.....

so much.....

*grumbles about level 9*

Ah, I remember back in EoB when I was terrible at this kind of gameplay. I'd just stand there toe-to-toe with every monster until they died. Or I did. Imagine just standing in front of a Mind Flayer. Yeesh.

Then Xanathar tore me to pieces, and in a flash of pubescent brillance I realized, "hey, this 3x3 room lets me move out of the way of his stuff." Then I ended up just flat-out killing the bastard because I never figured out that that special wand was specifically for killing him.

So yeah, I can kinda see how the Dungeon 2-Step can be seen as game-breaking, since it makes it easy to put yourself in a position where the enemy is incapable of attacking you 90% of the time, completely negating the need for a lot of defensive boosts. "Fixing" this would require some drastic changes though. The simplest would be to make enemies move and turn a lot faster, and/or give them AI's where they basically use the same tactic against you.

Actually now that I think of it... that would actually make a pretty awesome difficulty level beyond Hard. Nightmare Mode or something, where the enemies are actually as smart as you are, and attempt to use space and the environment to their advantage. Imagine an Ice Lizard just hiding around a corner, giving you no choice but to walk into it's bite. Skeleton Archers, Uggardians, and Goromorgs pelting you from a distance, running away to some distant point, and then doing it again the moment you come into their line of site (making them a real pain in hallways). Skeleton Soldiers walking sideways and backward, attacking you once, then moving out of the way, waiting for you to move next to them so they can do it again. And so on and so forth.

That would be gloriously difficult.

Gloriously difficult but brilliant if that were the case I would play this for 30 yrs not the 25 I plan on.
LOL! But it should like you say be a different "optional difficulty"

Darlos9D wrote: So yeah, I can kinda see how the Dungeon 2-Step can be seen as game-breaking, since it makes it easy to put yourself in a position where the enemy is incapable of attacking you 90% of the time, completely negating the need for a lot of defensive boosts. "Fixing" this would require some drastic changes though. The simplest would be to make enemies move and turn a lot faster, and/or give them AI's where they basically use the same tactic against you.

Actually now that I think of it... that would actually make a pretty awesome difficulty level beyond Hard. Nightmare Mode or something, where the enemies are actually as smart as you are, and attempt to use space and the environment to their advantage. Imagine an Ice Lizard just hiding around a corner, giving you no choice but to walk into it's bite. Skeleton Archers, Uggardians, and Goromorgs pelting you from a distance, running away to some distant point, and then doing it again the moment you come into their line of site (making them a real pain in hallways). Skeleton Soldiers walking sideways and backward, attacking you once, then moving out of the way, waiting for you to move next to them so they can do it again. And so on and so forth.

That would be gloriously difficult.

The AI's do try to use ranged tactics, but like you said the AI's move too slowly. Ugguardians, skeleton archers, and goromorgs will stay back and fire to try to draw you into range; however, if you do enough damage/attacks to annoy them, or you wait long enough, they will forget their ranged tactics and try to close the distance. Melee AI could certainly be more sophisticated: I only saw the AI use hit and run a few times. But if enemies moved faster and acted smarter, a party without tanks up front would be screwed by mid/end-game opponents. It's too bad, really: so many defensive skills/bonuses/equipment and not much practical use for it. I'm hoping DLC or fan dungeons will make higher skill levels feasible and introduce new (optional) combat situations.

b8w2N7r6Wz0q5e wrote:But if enemies moved faster and acted smarter, a party without tanks up front would be screwed by mid/end-game opponents.

Oh, gee. Wouldn't that be a shame OH WAIT that's why I want this to happen.

Guys please be respectful towards each other and try to remain constructive.

Daniel.