2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]

[Goffmog]

26 pages and this issue was not yet adressed by developers.


We are not asking to make game harder (casuals, please dont worry), we are asking for option - for those who like it - to be added to game that limits 2x2 dancing which currently "answer to everything" and basicly i-win tactic in combat.

If you really find it spoils the game for you, just wait for the dungeon editor, then drop walls into every level so that there are no open 2x2 spaces. But this is part of the game's design - not a glitch or an exploit - and I don't think reviweing the core gameplay is a very high priority for the developers at the moment, not until they have a proper idea of what worked well for most people and what didn't. I doubt they managed to get through making this game without the question of whether or not the 2x2 square dance should be a viable tactic coming up and it's very obvious at some points in the game that they want to lull you into the sense of security afforded by this tactic so that they can catch you out either with dungeon design or with clever monsters at key points where they want to raise the challenge. I've only got as far as level 5 playing on hard and already I've come across many places where I couldn't dance around enemies and had to fight my way out of corners or take on two enemies at a time.

[Thels]

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The fighters challenge you will lose your non-figher classes anyways since you can't go anywhere.

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It helps a lot if you held onto one of the gold keys from one of the treasure rooms. That allows you to kill just a few of them and then enter the corridor, so they can only attack from the front. That should make them easy enough.

I noticed that after I cleared it out the normal way. Fighting my way to the corner, and then turning left and right so I alternated which of my rear characters was exposed. I used frostbolts to freeze the mob on one adjacent square so I had a few seconds to face the other adjacent square and not worry about my rear characters getting attacked. Once a path opened up I made a run for it and kept running around the room, while sniping the remaining ones from afar. All my characters were still living and breathing, but barely...

Then I discovered the corridor and the gold key in the room, and noticed I already had a gold key in my backpack.

[billyh]

I love this game but the OP has a valid point. (haven't read the ## pages)
If the idea is to create a dungeon crawl, then you should be restricted in that you can't strafe away from an attacking monster because a 2x2 grid is allowing you to. Moving away is one thing, but "exploiting" a lack of diagonals is something that can get tedious.
again, love the game.

[Merethif]

They never get a hit in doing the 2x2 thing, which was the point of the thread.

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Ogre in 1, stand in 4, wait, yawn, when they move to 2 or 3 hit them x times and move once, yawn, repeat.
..but you all know this, pretending not to is just as sad.

So, as I understand this thread, the solution would be trading blows without moving. Something like:

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Ogre in 1, party stand in 3, hit attack buttons, wait, yawn, when attacks recover hit attack buttons, yawn, repeat.
... yes, so much more enjoying.

___
Now, more seriously to the original post:

Add rules of engagement. If you strafe away from a monster or turn your back to it, it has a chance of getting a free attack at you, depending on its speed and agility. (There could be skills to increase Evasion bonus against movement provoked attacks, or skills that let you strafe safely). Extensive circle strafing would still be highly effective and reward manual skill, but not deny the monsters 100% of their attacks.

-1. Strafing away shouldn't be punished. Most ranged enemies will still hit player if he just strafe away straight without taking covers. But luring monsters out to explored part of dungeon and dealing with them one by one should always be an viable option in games.

Add a short delay or build-up to attacks so you have to stay in the square longer when attacking. Daggers could have less/no delay so Rogues could still feel like ninjas. The delay could also help make weapons feel different - slow heavy hitting vs. small and fast. (i.e. click on Great Hammer.. build up sound effect plays.. 2 seconds later the attack lands with a massive thud)

-1. Because all party members moves together I could never make a backstab with Rogue if Fighter is locked in front of the monster because he's fighting with a mace. Unless I have only Rogues in the party. Probably needs testing but this idea doesn't seem fine at the first glance.

- Prevent moving completely under certain circumstances (say, someone is grabbed by a tentacle). Or have the incapacitated party member be auto-killed if the rest of the party flees instead of helps.

+1. Tentacles already have such ability. I totally agree it could be more common ability though.

- Give some large monsters the ability to sweep attack across all 3 squares in front of them.

+1. Sounds fair and interesting. Doesn't break the strafing idea, but makes it more challenging and creates situation where trading blows, or mixing both strategies, may be more efficient.

- Have some monsters attack so fast you have no time to strafe

+1. Shrakk Torrs are fast and more difficult to strafe already. Of course I'd love to see Shrakk Torrs more common and mixed-and-matched with other monsters in tight dungeons. And I really think Shrakk Torrs are made to be encountered in swarms, not just a two at once as it is now.

[Thels]

You could also have a mob that could only hit diagonally. It would be fun for a change, and he'd have to be decently fast, but just like regular 2x2ing with a single mob, it would be easy to counter.

[Isaac]

You could also have a mob that could only hit diagonally. It would be fun for a change, and he'd have to be decently fast, but just like regular 2x2ing with a single mob, it would be easy to counter.

Tentacles.

Tentacles should be able to hit all 8 adjacent squares; this would remove the exploit where you can 'activate' a tentacle, then side step it and have it essentially pause ~and block the path to other monsters. You can wait there indefinitely, heal, cast, and perhaps even sleep.


Also:
IMO Ogres could attack the party on the three squares in front of them; hitting all four in the center square, and the left or right pair on either side.

In practice, I mean as you dodge to the left or right, those on the left or right still risk getting pounded when you move to the adjacent square. I don't know how it would play out if the AI were made to deliberately attack diagonals. Certainly a deliberate diagonal attack would need extra animations, where the Tentacles could just flail about but technically be area effect for all 8 squares.

[Thels]

You could also have a mob that could only hit diagonally. It would be fun for a change, and he'd have to be decently fast, but just like regular 2x2ing with a single mob, it would be easy to counter.

Tentacles.

Tentacles should be able to hit all 8 adjacent squares; this would remove the exploit where you can 'activate' a tentacle, then side step it and have it essentially pause ~and block the path to other monsters. You can wait there indefinitely, heal, cast, and perhaps even sleep.

You can just step forward and backwards, and it works exactly the same, so it won't fix that. I honestly find tentacles really easy in comparison to any other monster, if you have time to finish them off. Though they're often used in combination with other monsters, which makes them an interesting roadblock.

Though I was talking about a monster that would only be able to attack diagonally. Perhaps it has a long reach attack, and the squares directly adjacent are too close for the attack.

[Isaac]

You can just step forward and backwards, and it works exactly the same, so it won't fix that.

When I encountered tentacles, they would always retreat back into the grate if I stepped back; but could (I took it for a glitch) become paralyzed if you sidestepped quickly. In which they would stay upright (and unmoving; meaning no undulating of their limbs).

I was able to do this when they blocked a hall, and have them block a monster in that hall indefinitely.

[Thels]

When I encountered tentacles, they would always retreat back into the grate if I stepped back; but could (I took it for a glitch) become paralyzed if you sidestepped quickly. In which they would stay upright (and unmoving; meaning no undulating of their limbs).

I managed to do the same thing when stepping back in time. Didn't always work, but often enough. If I fired an arrow at them, they would retract, though.

[Isaac]

When I encountered tentacles, they would always retreat back into the grate if I stepped back; but could (I took it for a glitch) become paralyzed if you sidestepped quickly. In which they would stay upright (and unmoving; meaning no undulating of their limbs).

I managed to do the same thing when stepping back in time. Didn't always work, but often enough. If I fired an arrow at them, they would retract, though.

I would cast poison cloud on the grate, and hop back and forth into and out of range; it would continuously poison itself.