Grimrock

1varangian wrote:I still think it's lame easy strafing overrides your character builds completely.

Not true. Character builds still have a lot of influence. I found combat a lot easier with my second party than my first, because I built my characters differently. I also didn't need to strafe nearly as much because of it.

Absolute statements like this only showcase an inability to understand nuance and complexity.

Most statements that use words like "all" "never" "every" end up being false.

1varangian wrote: Let' see. I've played EoB1-3, DM, Bloodwych, Black Crypt, Knightmare... am on my third Grimrock playthrough, something which I can't remember doing with any other game so quickly. Dungeon crawlers are my favourite genre and I still think it's lame easy strafing overrides your character builds completely.

Standing toe-to-toe with enemies in Grimrock is tougher than it is against most enemies in DM, and the only time you ever really needed to strafe in the EoB games was against the beholders and Dran in EoB II - I have fond memories of being trapped in a corner by a death knight at full health in DM and somehow fighting my way out - so I don't think it makes the game "lame easy" if anything Grimrock is harder because your characters can't take much punishment. "Character builds" just aren't that much of a feature of these games IMO, they weren't really important in DM except that you needed to level to get your mana and health up and practice with your weapons/spells, you could take any character and train them up - training them differently didn't really change the way you had to fight - and when you faced enemies with powerful attacks you always had to hit and run. Remember the dragon? The stone golems? How many of the purple worms could you face at once without backing off? EoB was different because the combat was based on D&D, although it wasn't turn based, it was based on a turn based system and standing opposite your opponent and exchanging blows 1-for-1 was a viable tactic most of the time. But Grimrock is Grimrock and I don't think it's a concern that being good with the controls is more important than being good at arithmetic.

This conversation goes on and on - it is starting to be entertaining! Friday feelings for everyone!

StaMM+sONJA (THE FIGHTEr)

230+ posts on 2x2 strafing. This is how the Roman empire came apart.

Goffmog wrote:

BlueLegion wrote:

dnk wrote:i believe it's not only him, because that tactic is not cheating. it's not against rules. and it's the best tactic.

The way I see it is that it's a failsafe. Even though every monster past the lvl 1 snails can destroy your party brutally if you stand toe-to-toe with it, every battle is supposed to be winnable. There are several ways to do it, this tactic just being the safest one you can always fall back to. Well, not always. Sometimes you will only get narrow corridors. Sometimes the monster will be faster than you or be able to attack sideways or to any side. How people can claim that every combat is based on this is ludicrous. Have they played past level 5 at all?

Of course they haven't! They've played the first 2 levels or so and found it a new type of gameplay they don't quite understand, and have come online to have a righteous moan about why it's all wrong without so much as seeing how it's developed throughout the game. You have to remember the background they're coming from, combat gameplay in modern RPGs is incredibly repetitive, the only thing that varies from fight to fight is the stats involved and combat "tactics" boils down to how you spend your levelling up points and what gear you choose. If you've played one battle in WoW or Dragon Age, you've played them all.

1) discussing this way isn't really constructive. you don't know me at all. i've finished the LoG completely, now playing it 2nd time already. also played Dungeon Master & Chaos Strikes Back (on atari st) when I was 7 years old... never played WoW or any new rpgs

2) i don't understand what you mean by "gameplay in modern RPGs is incredibly repetitive", but repetitive is a word i would use for all the LoG combats that could be won by walking in 2x2 circle. As i already said, there were lots of combats that were not like that, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't be improved and i don't see anything wrong about discussing it in some constructive way...

oodyboo wrote:

1varangian wrote:I still think it's lame easy strafing overrides your character builds completely.

Not true. Character builds still have a lot of influence. I found combat a lot easier with my second party than my first, because I built my characters differently. I also didn't need to strafe nearly as much because of it.

Absolute statements like this only showcase an inability to understand nuance and complexity.

Most statements that use words like "all" "never" "every" end up being false.

and "only"

I like "people accuse others of what they are guilty of". As when you say it, it is circular in itself.

By using "most" you are also claiming that the majority of sentences with those words are false, which is a bit of a reach.

He did not even use those words in the quote you provided. For him that aspect of the game overpowers the character build, which is not absolute (in the sense that the character has no effect whatsoever).

I have also seen people on forums claim the opposite, if you do not use absolute words then you are possibly lying or sitting on a fence. "It is probably a good time to do it."... but maybe not.

Really it is more Straw Man, (probably?) none of us hold the position people want to argue with us about.

You're right, I should not have used the word "only." How about this:

Absolute statements like this showcase an inability to understand nuance, complexity, and also a mind-numbingly stubborn ability to ignore reality.

The statement in the quote:

strafing overrides your character builds completely

As for straw man, did you have any response to my anecdote about how my different party builds impacted game play or just a nit-pick on that one word?

PS your 'avatar' picture is totally awesome. <- omg, I said "totally!"

lol, well this thread is becoming silly, I was joshing with you out of boredom.

"easy strafing overrides your character builds completely"

Not all strafing, what he means is when it is too easy there is no need to manage anything. He has shortened what he has said many times before as he has been hounded to complete boredom by about two or so people here.

When you remove "easy" and also his context, you are doing the Straw Man thing.

Some people are happy with how it is... others want the monsters to have more hope close range, with perhaps some compensation for the fact you need to revive.

Everyone here likes the game, and even most of the current system (including 2x2 staffing)... else they would not bother talking about it. Nobody is demanding anything. To argue something is finished and perfect is... defeatist... and yes it can never be perfect (this is a reply to a post a few pages back).

Different party builds would effect how long you have to 2x2 some monsters at various points in the game, or how many hits you can let them take. When the monster has no hope and I know I can take hits, then yes I stand there and pound (to make it faster), then strafe again... I am choosing when to let the monsters hit me, rather than using skill to stay alive. (in those "easy" situations)

This thread really is getting repetitive and dull.

Can we all just agree that square dancing around a lone HP inflated enemy for minutes at a time and never being attacked is not the epitome of fun and exciting combat? And neither is suddenly getting obliterated in a matter of seconds if two of the same monsters manage to corner you. The right balance is obviously somewhere in between.

1varangian wrote:This thread really is getting repetitive and dull.

Can we all just agree that square dancing around a lone HP inflated enemy for minutes at a time and never being attacked is not the epitome of fun and exciting combat? And neither is suddenly getting obliterated in a matter of seconds if two of the same monsters manage to corner you. The right balance is obviously somewhere in between.

I cannot agree to that. I love the game mechanics and the fact that I cannot play a perfect game (never getting hit while strafing). I do not, and never have approached a dungeon crawler as any sort of simulation; and always look upon them as a framework dressed up in whatever fiction the developers chose. There is nothing wrong with the game IMO ~this includes the combat; (and additionally would include it even if I did not like the combat, because it's very in keeping and indicative of the genre ~this is what dungeon crawlers are). "Fixing" them into something else entirely is a bad move IMO. Other games are free to use their own systems as ever they please. LoG just happens to be a wonderful example of a dungeon crawler IMO.

** (I'm not looking to extend the argument; I'm just stating that I couldn't agree, and a little bit of why that is).