Grimrock

Thels wrote:

petri wrote:Only a single wallset per level is supported.

Darklord wrote:That's a shame, being able to transition from one to the other would have been nice.Daniel.

Clever minds might find a way to cheat around this. Only the automap would be a dead giveaway.

Is the automap generated from the level or is it bitmap?

I've already seen the graphics change, when a secret hallway was discovered, so no, a fixed image doesn't seem likely.

Thels wrote:I've already seen the graphics change, when a secret hallway was discovered, so no, a fixed image doesn't seem likely.

Lands of Lore did that also.

Could be generated, or could use tiles itself; I think it's probably generated.
Before LoG shipped, I suggested to them that the automap pages be conformed to a curve (the curve of the page), as a minor touch of detail, but it was still a bit late in development, and I saw problems with that if it was generated from the level layout.

Glad to hear you had a good time.

I want to try Sima some day.. Any chance Olli will mail some to his dad in Israel and I'll pick it off him, or would it spoil in the trip abroad?

petri wrote:Yep, the plan is to use a gui whenever the gui is a better choice (placement of objects, drawing the walls, editing object properties) and use textual representation for things that are better described in code (puzzle logic). Like you said, the editor should be powerful enough to allow recreation of all puzzles and concepts in the original dungeon - complex puzzles need complex logic and these are better described in code.

Right, OK, that sounds good.... I was concerned that you weren't going to provide a GUI for the basic building. I'd still be a bit concerned if the GUI can't link a door to a switch though, I think that ability would make the editor much more accessible to hobbyist designers.

petri wrote:So I think we have established that we need texture scripting (for those complex puzzles) and the question is whether in addition we should support visual scripting. The thing is, I'm not very keen on supporting two ways of scripting (visual and textual), especially when "point and click" is inherently limited in its capabilities to those building blocks we provide. It just feels like additional work without gaining anything.

What you would be gaining is the eternal gratitude of thousands of non-programmer-designers. I understand whjy you have reservations, but since most hobbyist designers are not coders, I think you'd really be limiting who can use the editor if it doesn't have point-and-click puzzle creation. Have you used the RTC and DSB editors? If so, you'll know that they both allow entire dungeons to be built without touching any scripting at all.

petri wrote:That said, we want to make dungeon editing as painless as possible, it's just that we have a different view what is "painless"

Yep, indeed It's the enternal struggle between code-head programmers, and visually minded designers

petri wrote:It's still possible that I change my mind about this but first we'll have to get a bare bones editor up and running and see how the workflow feels.

Cool, I'm looking forward to it

petri wrote:p.s. I recommend that you look into basics of (Lua) programming - it can give some interesting insights and help see the bigger picture. Not only for modding Grimrock and DSB but it could also become a new tool for solving problems in completely different fields.

Yep, I have already done some Lua work in the DSB engine to build a new champion selector. It's pretty cool stuff. I understand enough coding to be able to build basic things if that's the last option available. My concern was that you would be *forcing* people to code, when a visual point-and-click interface is really a better model for this sort of game editor.

What are RTC and DSB?

I'm not sure if this is the general opinion, but I play LoG for the puzzles mostly. Sure, sometimes the monsters are part of the puzzle, as you have to figure out how to properly strafe-fight them in an enclosed environment, or when there are several around. Just simple hacking and slashing my way through a large pack of mobs is not something that interests me a lot. For that, I'd rather wait for D3.

That said, to keep the puzzles interesting, they need to be pretty complex. And while you can do some stuff with simple switches and doors hooked up to each other, it's very limited. If you want to make an interesting dungeon, you really need to bring in some advanced logic for your switches and doors. I can't see how that's done in GUI without making the GUI more complex than the scripting.

Thels wrote:What are RTC and DSB?

Return to Chaos & Dungeon Strikes Back, they are Dungeon Master clones for use on modern PC's, here a link.

http://www.dungeon-master.com/

Daniel.

Darklord wrote: http://www.dungeon-master.com/

Hey, what's the name of the port/game in the lower left corner of that image? The one that is (looks) actually 3D?

Dungeon Master Nexus for the Sega Saturn (Japan only release).

Oh, balls