2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]

[BlueSpace]

I see it as BlueSpace, just want to add that Bard's Tale is just a 'rip-off' from the early Wizardry-games (I-III,V) - with nice graphics of course. Kind of like Eye of the Beholder is just a Dungeon Master 'AD&D rip-off' with nice graphics...

You're right, but I'm more familiar with the Bard's tale series and that is the reason why I started there. Wizardry is older of course.

[Mychaelh]

And also Wizardry was just a rip-off from the PLATO-system dungeon crawls like Oubliette - Wizardry I is 'just' designed for 'home computers'.


Oubliette (1979)

-> http://translate.google.de/translate?sl ... 75&act=url

[Spathi]

Man that is old 1979! never even played it, damn, lol

This topic has more relevance...
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1872&start=10

[Mychaelh]

[... I'm more familiar with the Bard's tale series and that is the reason why I started there. Wizardry is older of course.

If you are interested in old stuff, I would always recommend Wizardry Games over Bard's Tale games. Best new ones are the Drakensang-Games.

[BlueSpace]

[... I'm more familiar with the Bard's tale series and that is the reason why I started there. Wizardry is older of course.

If you are interested in old stuff, I would always recommend Wizardry Games over Bard's Tale games. Best new ones are the Drakensang-Games.

Shall we begin an argument... The Thief of Fate vs Crusaders of the Dark Savant? Maybe I'll write a PM

[JinX]

I can see the appeal of the strafe type of gameplay too. It's a kind of Tetris trying to stay out of harms way and getting that backstab in.

The problem is that it's way too easy and reliable. It trivializes combat a lot. Circle strafing crabs and ice lizards becomes such a chore. Sometimes I just stop strafing and let them attack because I know I can just resume strafing anytime I get hurt. Combat should always feel dangerous instead of a chore. Giving the player god-like control over the outcome does undermine the whole deal.

And since it is a party based game, I would rather see the player rewarded for good use of party dynamics than his mad strafing skillz. With the strafe being so easy and effective you basically only need one party member 95% of the time, with the other 3 only coming in handy if you make a mistake and get cornered. The difference between monster X in a hallway and monster X in an open space is also huge. Why does monster x who just slaughters you in a hallway suddenly get no chance to attack you at all?

I wonder if it would be possible to make the game work for both solo rogues (strafing as is, emphasis on player movement) OR a party of 4 with strafing limitations, emphasis on group dynamics.

Your point is wrong, because you are supposing that every guy is dancing around the enemies to kill them whole time remaining not hurt at all, that's what are you doing now, I move and try to escape when it's necessary not whole time, so if you are abusing what you can do (exploiting the gameplay to never get hit) that's your choice, but you cannot talk like if everyone else perception is like yours.

I agree that combat could be still improved both for you and the enemies, (for example smarter enemies, actively seeking you, maybe some opening doors and other stuff and AoE melee/magical attacks, weapon grab), but revising the game or taking your suggestions like if you were the only serious gamer here is wrong.

Notice: You're also not considering that not every player that plays this game has your skills, as others already pointed out.

[dnk]

Your point is wrong, because you are supposing that every guy is dancing around the enemies to kill them whole time remaining not hurt at all, that's what are you doing now

i believe it's not only him, because that tactic is not cheating. it's not against rules. and it's the best tactic.
in my opinion, if the best way to fight is some boring way, then it's not players fault, that the combats are boring for him. because player usually just try to do his best. and if the best is the boring, then what should he do? purposely play worse than he can, to have more fun?

anyway, we are not talking about all combats, because there were lots of interesting combats, in places where you couldn't get the enemy into a 2x2 space, or when you got closed with more enemies in one room, etc.

but in my opinion, even the common combats could be improved into something interesting, if the behaviour and attributes of enemies would be improved. for example if they would turn much faster even if they don't move fast.. and be less predictable (in some reasonable way). better AI of the enemies would make *all* the combats more fun for sure.

[BlueLegion]

i believe it's not only him, because that tactic is not cheating. it's not against rules. and it's the best tactic.

The way I see it is that it's a failsafe. Even though every monster past the lvl 1 snails can destroy your party brutally if you stand toe-to-toe with it, every battle is supposed to be winnable. There are several ways to do it, this tactic just being the safest one you can always fall back to. Well, not always. Sometimes you will only get narrow corridors. Sometimes the monster will be faster than you or be able to attack sideways or to any side. How people can claim that every combat is based on this is ludicrous. Have they played past level 5 at all?

[Goffmog]

i believe it's not only him, because that tactic is not cheating. it's not against rules. and it's the best tactic.

The way I see it is that it's a failsafe. Even though every monster past the lvl 1 snails can destroy your party brutally if you stand toe-to-toe with it, every battle is supposed to be winnable. There are several ways to do it, this tactic just being the safest one you can always fall back to. Well, not always. Sometimes you will only get narrow corridors. Sometimes the monster will be faster than you or be able to attack sideways or to any side. How people can claim that every combat is based on this is ludicrous. Have they played past level 5 at all?

Of course they haven't! They've played the first 2 levels or so and found it a new type of gameplay they don't quite understand, and have come online to have a righteous moan about why it's all wrong without so much as seeing how it's developed throughout the game. You have to remember the background they're coming from, combat gameplay in modern RPGs is incredibly repetitive, the only thing that varies from fight to fight is the stats involved and combat "tactics" boils down to how you spend your levelling up points and what gear you choose. If you've played one battle in WoW or Dragon Age, you've played them all.

[1varangian]

i believe it's not only him, because that tactic is not cheating. it's not against rules. and it's the best tactic.

The way I see it is that it's a failsafe. Even though every monster past the lvl 1 snails can destroy your party brutally if you stand toe-to-toe with it, every battle is supposed to be winnable. There are several ways to do it, this tactic just being the safest one you can always fall back to. Well, not always. Sometimes you will only get narrow corridors. Sometimes the monster will be faster than you or be able to attack sideways or to any side. How people can claim that every combat is based on this is ludicrous. Have they played past level 5 at all?

Of course they haven't! They've played the first 2 levels or so and found it a new type of gameplay they don't quite understand, and have come online to have a righteous moan about why it's all wrong without so much as seeing how it's developed throughout the game. You have to remember the background they're coming from, combat gameplay in modern RPGs is incredibly repetitive, the only thing that varies from fight to fight is the stats involved and combat "tactics" boils down to how you spend your levelling up points and what gear you choose. If you've played one battle in WoW or Dragon Age, you've played them all.

Let' see. I've played EoB1-3, DM, Bloodwych, Black Crypt, Knightmare... am on my third Grimrock playthrough, something which I can't remember doing with any other game so quickly. Dungeon crawlers are my favourite genre and I still think it's lame easy strafing overrides your character builds completely.