Grimrock

Jefrach wrote:...By using bags and crates or is there more to the HUD?...

Not Hud but Hub. A special location

Jefrach wrote:Alchemists seem to be a bit contentious. I think tips for beginners would be things that make the game a little easier to get acquainted with. If Alchemists are good but not required then picking them up on the second play through might be a good suggestion.

Alchemists as a class have one special ability regarding reagents aka potion components. As long as they have at least 1 unit of a reagent they do "grow" more of them inside their inventory following a fixed ration for each reagent. Those extra reagents can then be used to create extra potions that parties without an alchemist won't have.

The most wanted potions are naturally the stat boosting potions mentioned earlier. Some of those potions are scattered throughout the game world while the majority is self-made. Depending on when alchemists acquire the needed reagents and how much growth takes place a player can get extra reagents for maybe 10 to 15 extra stat boost potions. That's nice to round out some edges but definetly not required.

Jefrach wrote:Don't waste your time with the humans' fast learner trait. It's pointless.

Why do you think it's pointless? At first glance it seems really useful.

This is a bit of a tough one to answer since it requires to spoil some info about the game so let me put it this way:
While non-human characters gain the regular amount of experience human characters always gain +10% addition experience and human characters with the fast learner trait gain +20 addition experience. This means when a minotaur gains 100 xp a human gains 110 and a fast learner 120 for the same action.

If a level up in LoG could be reached by gaining a fixed amount of xp i.e. 1000 a fast learner would over time gain several extra levels over other characters. Yet the experience gaps between levels grow larger and larger so it's very unlikely that a fast learner gains more than a permanent +1 level advantage over other characters. Here a little example with numbers. Let's say a ratling managed to reached level 10. That's 45,000 xp. A fast learner could have gained 54,000 xp at the same time but that's also still level 10 so he only was there faster than said ratling.

Still the fast learner trait has it's benefits when used with the farmer class due to the way they gain experience.

Jefrach wrote:Don't waste your time with the humans' fast learner trait. It's pointless.

Why do you think it's pointless? At first glance it seems really useful.

Because it doesn't necessarily get a character an extra level. I found this out the hard way: On my first play through I made a party of two humans and two non-humans, and all characters almost got to level 15.

On my second play through, I made a party with four humans. each one with the fast learner trait. Got all of them to level 15. Would've gotten them to level 15 without the trait.

In both cases I didn't get anything from the trait.

Jefrach wrote:The Hud is very useful for storing items.

By using bags and crates or is there more to the HUD?

I really wrote Hud Should have been Hub, a location.

Jefrach wrote:I think tips for beginners would be things that make the game a little easier to get acquainted with.

This right here is exactly why having an alchemist is a good tip for a beginner. Having one lets you be more loose with your potions so you don't have to 'save them in case you need them later.' Can you do the game just fine without them? Yes you can, but a beginner might find things easier with the virtually unlimited potions you can make with alchemists. If you find yourself needing more ingredients for potions or bombs you can just wander different maps to cause enemies that drop food to respawn and go hunting them while you wait for ingredients to grow in your alchemist's inventory.

Thorham wrote:

Azel wrote:Glad you like something, but this is a discussion about Beginner Tips. Letting someone know that they can get additional Attribute points in the game is a tip.

Yes, it is, but it's not required. Not for beginners, not for anyone. You make those potions because you want to, not because you have to. That's why I said that you don't need an alchemist. Exceptions may be the harder game modes, of course.

Attribute potions are not required, but they do make things easier and making things easier is what tips are about. Dismissing something that makes the game easier because it's 'not required' is inane. That's like suggesting someone not take a caster in their party because they aren't required. In the spoiler is the absolute bare minimum spell casting requirements for the entire game.Even though a caster isn't required I don't often hear about group compositions that don't include at least 1 caster. That's because casters bring a lot of damage to the table so make things easier. You can play without one just fine, like you can play without an alchemist just fine, but neither should just be blatantly dismissed on the grounds of 'they are not required.'

Thorham wrote:Nowhere did I say, nor imply, that one should do whatever. I specifically said to focus one's skill point use. Things like picking one weapon type for a character and sticking to it. I said to just play whatever class seems like fun to play, it's what they're there for.

No one argued against focusing skill points, specializing each character into a specific role is a great tip. Also, no one is saying to take an alchemist over any other class you want to take instead. We are just pointing out that for a beginner they are worth considering because they do give you more leeway so you can play a bit more loosey-goosey.

Thorham wrote:The reason for my advice is that a beginner won't find as many gold keys as someone who knows the game well.

Again, I disagree with you. Yes a beginner might not know where to look for the keys, but part of the game is about exploring and looking for secrets hidden throughout the game. The secrets in the game are bonuses, not needed to complete the game, but definitely nice to have just like the gold key rewards. Some of the gold key rewards I found to be completely useless because what they offered didn't fit into my party's build so definitely try to look beyond the door to figure out what the reward is before using the key, but don't forgo something that looks like it might be nice to have because you 'might find something better later.' A beginner has no idea what they'll find later or how long they'll have to go before they find something better. So for a beginner, if you aren't sure what you are going to get for that key, save the game check it out and decide for yourself if the reward was worth the key. If you think you'll use it, it's probably worth the key.

Thorham wrote:In my first play through I found that I actually hadn't used that many potions because of the healing crystals. I had more ingredients left over then I knew what to do with. Clearly they aren't a hard requirement. Then again, I must admit that I did use the crystals excessively to save potions and ingredients on purpose.

Are you lying to me, Thorham? Is it because you were using 2 frontline Knights? If so I may have to second-guess my take that Knights are currently useless based on the notion that Warriors are just as effective at tanking only with better damage output. I still need to do some playtests but more to the point... the only time I used Heal Potions heavily is during boss battles and extra crowded areas (rats, zombi hordes). Are you saying even boss battles and monster hordes didn't push you to needing heal pots?

I used Rage often, heal often, energy regen all the damn time cause I love special attacks and spells, shield regularly especially when getting surrounded, all of the "cure" potions (antivenom, antidote), and I made about 40 +Attribute potions thanks to dual alchemists.

So when I say having an Alchemist is "vital" I'm not saying that without one you fail in the game; I'm just saying that the results can make things much easier and provide distinct advantages in virtually every challenge the game throws at you - which makes it essential (vital) in my opinion.

In the end, play how you like, this is just a tip

Thorham wrote:Only marginally weaker, and obviously not for very long. Not spending resources as quickly as possible is not bad advice.

I actually agree with minmay regarding the Gold Keys. I originally read a tip that said to save gold keys for mid to late game. I ended up at the final battle with 4 unused Gold Keys because I was hoarding them.

A better tip would be to make sure you always have at least "one" extra Gold Key available. And actually, if we take Thorhams original advice that nothing is "vital" then you really don't have to save the gold keys at all. Get one, use it. If you don't like what was acquired, reload the game and try again later. Nothings vital anyway

Anurias wrote:We are just pointing out that for a beginner they are worth considering because they do give you more leeway so you can play a bit more loosey-goosey.

lol @ loosey-goosey. Did you just call my Alchemist Duo sluts?? Bad Anurias!

I'm done arguing about this.

Azel wrote:

Thorham wrote:In my first play through I found that I actually hadn't used that many potions because of the healing crystals. I had more ingredients left over then I knew what to do with. Clearly they aren't a hard requirement. Then again, I must admit that I did use the crystals excessively to save potions and ingredients on purpose.

Are you lying to me, Thorham? Is it because you were using 2 frontline Knights? If so I may have to second-guess my take that Knights are currently useless based on the notion that Warriors are just as effective at tanking only with better damage output. I still need to do some playtests but more to the point... the only time I used Heal Potions heavily is during boss battles and extra crowded areas (rats, zombi hordes). Are you saying even boss battles and monster hordes didn't push you to needing heal pots?

Honestly the boss fights in the game don't require many healing potions. I also had a stack of 25+ herbs for Health/Energy potions left over at the end of the game. On many of the bosses a simple Rage potion will decimate a boss before it inflicts much damage on you. I used more healing potions traversing spike trap puzzles and jumping down pits than anything else.

The Rage potions are definitely badass. I used Heal Pots a few times when the Trickster was around, and everyone drank a heal potion during the "Bane" acquisition.

Agreed though that the primary reason I kept at least 10 Heal Potions handy on the group is because of "limb damage."

Thorham wrote:

Azel wrote:Agreed; if a player skips out on an Alchemist then they won't be able to grow extra potions (Energy, Health, Rage, and Shield) that are vital to the game;

They're not vital.

taken from Webster's

extra: more than is usual or necessary

vital: extremely important, needed by your body in order to keep living

Thorham is right. An "extra" is never vital.

I agree that nothing in the game is 'vital' and I think Azel may be exaggerating in his usage of the word 'vital'. But all in all, a beginner is more likely to make mistakes and mistakes hurt, so having extra potions makes the game more forgiving of mistakes. Remember, the point of the topic is tips for beginners. This isn't a contest of how hardcore you can be, it's suggestions to make the game more forgiving of rookie mistakes and to help prevent rookie mistakes where they can be prevented.

Azel wrote:Did you just call my Alchemist Duo sluts?? Bad Anurias!

No... but now that you bring it up my minotaur knight might be interested in getting to know them.