Grimrock

stirfry wrote:Omitting hotkeys creates an ergonomic challenge, not a tactical challenge. Do you think if you removed all the hotkeys from Starcraft and had to press the icons manually it would require more thinking? Good mechanics should test your mind, not give you arthritis. The game gives you incentive to fire off attacks as quickly as they are available but instead of limiting your speed with in-game resources like stamina or refresh periods the attacks just require a great deal of mousing that wears out the wrist.

There are games that legitimately force you to split your attention between resource management, combat, and movement, but that is not what is happening here IMO. It is always best to attack as soon as the icon lights up, it just hurts my hands to do so. There are dozens of better ways you could stop people from spamming abilities. You could force the party to stop for a period of time after casting a spell or tie various other statistical or mechanical penalties to casting spells. You could make mana only rechargeable by consumable items so you have to choose when to cast very carefully or spell costs could be increased. Physical fighters could be given stamina bars that cause their defense and offense to be lowered if they fire off abilities too rapidly.

If I sound too harsh I apologize. The devs have done a great job and I love the game, I just think they went the wrong way on the interface by imposing real life physical inconvenience on attacking instead of in-game consequences.

I believe in this, precisely. Everyone immediately jumps to the defense of this game calling the system more "tactical" but I truly do think that having to click on attack buttons really detract from my immersion and more importantly, the extra challenge is certainly not "good" challenge. I mean, the majority of the combat "tactics" in this game is already based on abusing AI and doors; making this more difficult by requiring us to click on spells seems like such artificial difficulty. It wouldn't hurt to be able to load up a spell by right-clicking the spell tome or something, to facilitate casting. Add a casting time, even. It'd make more sense that way just because you already have 3 other hand icons to click on (and I'm sure in any "real" circumstances four people would be able to attack simultaneously).

The only issue with keyboard controls is that this game is so heavily dependent on the mouse that even if we had keyboard-mappable attack commands (let's say we have the UIJK square for attacking, and it did right-hand attacks by default) we'd still need to move back and forth from mouse to keyboard with the right hand to open up secrets, etc. I think the UI is definitely still immature at this stage, and could use improvement.

Ice wrote:I believe in this, precisely. Everyone immediately jumps to the defense of this game calling the system more "tactical" but I truly do think that having to click on attack buttons really detract from my immersion and more importantly, the extra challenge is certainly not "good" challenge. I mean, the majority of the combat "tactics" in this game is already based on abusing AI and doors; making this more difficult by requiring us to click on spells seems like such artificial difficulty. It wouldn't hurt to be able to load up a spell by right-clicking the spell tome or something, to facilitate casting. Add a casting time, even. It'd make more sense that way just because you already have 3 other hand icons to click on (and I'm sure in any "real" circumstances four people would be able to attack simultaneously).

The only issue with keyboard controls is that this game is so heavily dependent on the mouse that even if we had keyboard-mappable attack commands (let's say we have the UIJK square for attacking, and it did right-hand attacks by default) we'd still need to move back and forth from mouse to keyboard with the right hand to open up secrets, etc. I think the UI is definitely still immature at this stage, and could use improvement.

I'd argue that while being forced to use an extremely sensitive input device to hit tiny little buttons rapidly and with precision is not helping the genre, being forced to memorize runes and select the proper ones are. I wouldn't say this is a poor design decision - just a poor UI decision. I think we might be agreeing somewhat, but I don't believe something like selecting a spell from a list is the right way to go.

I managed to do really well with two mages on hard with two different schools of magic; leaving tactical consideration for the time to use spells and plotting my route and attack pattern on-the-fly. Obviously I couldn't do this at the start of the game, I was actually pretty terrible, but... People get better at things the more they try, right?

I personally thought it was a brilliant idea, made magic not such a walk in the park and put more pressure on you to do it correctly and on time, rather then it being dependant on numbers for a successful cast, and some stat for casting time. Also if anything, it made me more immersed, as I had to have immense concentration on what I was doing.

Yosharian wrote:Just wanna go ahead and add to this discussion by saying that I think magic in this game is NOT cumbersome. The rune casting system is great.

HOWEVER on a high rez (1920x1080) I am staring at a very small patch of screen to select these runes. There could be a better way. I don't know.

Maybe an interface scaling option for people like yourself? I'm using 1920*1080 and it's absolutely fine for me, but it's a 32" monitor I'm sitting 1 metre from. =p

I like the fact that mages are treated differently. Their method of attack isn't quick use, its involved. Their attacks aren't meant to be rapidly fired. They are meant to be used with strategy and precision.

Crashbanito wrote:I like the fact that mages are treated differently. Their method of attack isn't quick use, its involved. Their attacks aren't meant to be rapidly fired. They are meant to be used with strategy and precision.

I'm FULLY AGREE!!! Magic system perfect! Add more spells and be much cool!

I don't think it needs to be easier to cast overall, but it does need keybinds (for the runes, not for the actual spells). Using the mouse to punch in runes for 2+ mages is a royal pain, and I'd love to use my numpad to select the runes for my spells.

I also vouch for the magic system as it is, and I'm a visually-impaired gamer who has had his fair share of misclicks. For simply right-clicking to attack, it makes sense. Melee attacks tend to be one fluid motion. Magic in a fantasy setting, on the other hand, tends to be done by hand motions and/or chants. The magic system is very clear on how it works from the beginning, and it lets you discover new spells on your own if you meet the requirements, rather than demanding you find a scroll or tome to be able to cast the spell.
That, and it makes magic casting rely on the player's skill rather than their sheer ability to click buttons fast.

And in regard to misclicks that cause a failed spell, think of it as your mage failing to use the required chant/motions. Somewhere along the line they cast a misshapen rune, or added the wrong rune entirely to the mix, changing the makeup of the spell. And this added complexity in spellcasting is also compensated for by not having to watch spells whiff. So long as the magic hits the monster on-screen, it will hit, even if it does 0 damage (at least as I've seen so far).

As for multiple runes spells, so far I haven't had too many problems with the 2-rune spells. The 3x3 grid makes things easy to visualize even for me.

If mages could insta-cast spells, they would be overpowered... I am using two mages in my back row and they are far more effective at taking out enemies than my front row fighter and rogue.

Got the game, and had two friends over (who use to play the old might and magic, Dungeon Keeper also). As we played, we really got excited. But as I kept having to stare at the bottor right buttons, instead of getting to watch the great graphics and enjoy the action, I got a little turned off. I did not want to stare at the characters hands the entire game, but see the "game" itself while I played.

I was still having "ok" fun though. Then, we figured out how magic works, and oh my gosh, we could not beleive it when we searched and searched, and then found out there was no hotkeys; that we would have to use the same tedious; repititious; borring key sequences the entire game. That was the deal-breaker for my two friends, as they are not getting the game now.

And for those saying it is more "strategic" that way. WHAT? SERIUSLY? You've got to be kidding me. How is clicking on the same ponderous key sequecnes; hoping you get it juuuuuust right; and click on the icons juuuuuust right strategic??? It's borring, and totally takes away from us being able to just cast a spell, instead we are playing whack-a-mole with a tiny hammer vs tiny moles.

If they want to put a delay; a few seconds from clicking on the spell hotkey till the spell is cast, that would be fine with us. But as it is, there is no way I'm going to continue playing this game with such a counter intuative spell UI. I want to play the game; watch the game; not stare at the UI and fiddle with Icons while missing all the action on the screen.

More strategic.

The point about strategy is, that you have to plan your fights beforehand. You have to find good places to which you can lure the monsters.
You must have space to run away a little, to have the time to cast.

People, who want insta-buttons for magic, basically want to drop the magic system for combat completely and get handed out assault-rifles instead.



...roaming the Dungeon of Grimrock.