Grimrock

rumpelstilskin wrote:that's until he pushes you into a spike pit. it doesn't even have to be a pit - he can just push you away, which also stuns you temporarily, leaving you open to the attack of the clones (tm), letting him to restore the shield.. basically, if he pushes you, you are mostly screwed. you can obviously avoid that if you are quick enough, but that fight really emphasizes the twitch side of the combat system, which i find the most annoying thing about the game.

Hmm. I never had that problem. I just went up to him, hit him a few and killed him. He brought out clones once, but 1 hit each and they both died. It was super easy, the Dragon fight was more harder, becuase his shield actually make him invincable unlike in this fight.

Jirodyne wrote:

rumpelstilskin wrote:that's until he pushes you into a spike pit. it doesn't even have to be a pit - he can just push you away, which also stuns you temporarily, leaving you open to the attack of the clones (tm), letting him to restore the shield.. basically, if he pushes you, you are mostly screwed. you can obviously avoid that if you are quick enough, but that fight really emphasizes the twitch side of the combat system, which i find the most annoying thing about the game.

Hmm. I never had that problem. I just went up to him, hit him a few and killed him. He brought out clones once, but 1 hit each and they both died. It was super easy, the Dragon fight was more harder, becuase his shield actually make him invincable unlike in this fight.

it gets quite a bit harder once he puts up the shields, but you do have a window of opportunity right when the fight starts. i suppose if you manage to kill him during that window it can be pretty easy indeed.

kamamura wrote:What a horrible, dreadful, unimaginative ending to an otherwise pleasurable experience.

Ha! I am in that point right now. An again what I can say about LoG II? What a lack of ideas, what a bad game design. Hey! Devs! Why You dont add dragons in that fight or only 3 clones? I ended Dark Souls - it IS hard game, but great balanced: You die, but only for own mistakes - and You WANT try again. And You know what I want to do with LoG II? Uninstall. And this is the difference what make great, timeless game like DS, and irritating, bad designed game like LoG II.

BTW: ending I can openly say - LoG II is definitely NOT dungeon crawler, it is puzzle-logic game. No real exploration, no cRPG elements, no endless deep dungeon - only puzzles. Few steps: puzzle. Go right: puzzle. Go left: puzzle. Next step: next boring (sometimes completely unlogical/abstract) puzzle.

LoG II is not a step forward comparing do LoG I, it is step backward. What a disappointment.

PS
I make this "fight" for 30 minutes, kill dozen "masters" and at last was killed. So... Thank You for this "entertaining". Time to uninstall.

rumpelstilskin wrote:

Jirodyne wrote:

rumpelstilskin wrote:that's until he pushes you into a spike pit. it doesn't even have to be a pit - he can just push you away, which also stuns you temporarily, leaving you open to the attack of the clones (tm), letting him to restore the shield.. basically, if he pushes you, you are mostly screwed. you can obviously avoid that if you are quick enough, but that fight really emphasizes the twitch side of the combat system, which i find the most annoying thing about the game.

Hmm. I never had that problem. I just went up to him, hit him a few and killed him. He brought out clones once, but 1 hit each and they both died. It was super easy, the Dragon fight was more harder, becuase his shield actually make him invincable unlike in this fight.

it gets quite a bit harder once he puts up the shields, but you do have a window of opportunity right when the fight starts. i suppose if you manage to kill him during that window it can be pretty easy indeed.

I got him on the first try and I didn't even know what was going on during half the fight. First I was standing around for a bit waiting for him to come to me after he ran away. Then I killed so many duplicates while trying to find the right one (because having avoided him for like a minute, he had plenty of time to make a ton of dupes). Finally found the "real" Island Master, broke through his shield, and then I just stuck to him like glue and it didn't take too long from there.

Galnospoke wrote:

kamamura wrote:What a horrible, dreadful, unimaginative ending to an otherwise pleasurable experience.

BTW: ending I can openly say - LoG II is definitely NOT dungeon crawler, it is puzzle-logic game. No real exploration, no cRPG elements, no endless deep dungeon - only puzzles. Few steps: puzzle. Go right: puzzle. Go left: puzzle. Next step: next boring (sometimes completely unlogical/abstract) puzzle.

These complaints always amuse me because they betray a lack of knowledge about what dungeon crawlers and RPGs originated as. Grimrock and Grimrock 2 are both old-school dungeon crawlers in the finest and most accurate sense. Indeed, the least old-school thing about it is the real-time addition with regards to combat, which I find I enjoy regardless.

thufir wrote: These complaints always amuse me because they betray a lack of knowledge about what dungeon crawlers and RPGs originated as. Grimrock and Grimrock 2 are both old-school dungeon crawlers in the finest and most accurate sense. Indeed, the least old-school thing about it is the real-time addition with regards to combat, which I find I enjoy regardless.

I ended: Dungeon Master, Dungeon Master 2 (partially - it was to stupid like LoG II ending), EoB 2 (9/10, almost perfect), EoB 3, Hired Guns, Black Crypt (imo best DC ever), some M&M, Fate (partially - my Amiga died!), all Ishar series (Ishar III sometime with solution, it was really hard game, best was imho II), Perihelion (oh! it was great! still have OST from this game), Wizardry (partially - enemies leveling system was hilarious), Elvira mistress of the dark (with solution, psychedelic game), Betrayal in... (I dont remember), Daggerfall & Morrowind (both partially - too huge and after hours of play too boring, no time to end), Oblivion & Skyrim (semi DC - again, too boring) and of course LoG I (great game). This titles I remember for now. Of course this are ONLY dungeon crawlers type, not all cRPG I played. And You really think that only You know what dungeon crawler is? Dream on.

Galnospoke wrote:

thufir wrote: These complaints always amuse me because they betray a lack of knowledge about what dungeon crawlers and RPGs originated as. Grimrock and Grimrock 2 are both old-school dungeon crawlers in the finest and most accurate sense. Indeed, the least old-school thing about it is the real-time addition with regards to combat, which I find I enjoy regardless.

I ended: Dungeon Master, Dungeon Master 2 (partially - it was to stupid like LoG II ending), EoB 2 (9/10, almost perfect), EoB 3, Hired Guns, Black Crypt (imo best DC ever), some M&M, Fate (partially - my Amiga died!), all Ishar series (Ishar III sometime with solution, it was really hard game, best was imho II), Perihelion (oh! it was great! still have OST from this game), Wizardry (partially - enemies leveling system was hilarious), Elvira mistress of the dark (with solution, psychedelic game), Betrayal in... (I dont remember), Daggerfall & Morrowind (both partially - too huge and after hours of play too boring, no time to end), Oblivion & Skyrim (semi DC - again, too boring) and of course LoG I (great game). This titles I remember for now. Of course this are ONLY dungeon crawlers type, not all cRPG I played. And You really think that only You know what dungeon crawler is? Dream on.

While I have no played many of the 'old school' games. I do know 2 things. 1, they had better mechanics and puzzles. And 2, the secrets were actually hidden. For example I remember in one of them, right in the very beginning of the game there was a really powerful weapon hidden in a secret. But there was no button, or indication. You just had to click part of the wall, but the wall was textured the same as every other wall. The 'botton' was invisable. There was no sound, no 'pressed in' no change. Secrets were actually SECRET and HIDDEN. Unlike here in LoG 1 and 2. You see every single button, and there is only 1 button per wall texture. I also remember back in the day where the puzzles were a lot more challanging, and of course much more punishing.

For example, pitfalls used to be deadly. Now thanks to LoG 1 and 2, we know to go down EVERY pitfal, for they will almost always have a secret or loot for us. They should have changed things up in LoG 2. We have rope now to go down into holes right? They should have made pitfalls both deadly and not deadly, and force people to use the Rope to check. If you can't go down, it's deadly. And if it's not deadly, you will go down.

I also remember in that old game I played for a bit, you starting with 1 person, not 4, and were able to recruit NPCs found hidden in the game. Like a dwarf locked up in the Mines. It also had much more fun Magic system if I remember right too. What else... You find a keychain, to put all your keys on. You put the key on the keychain, then used the keychain and it would open any locks all the keys on it could open. It even had basic things like Invisable walls that look just like every other wall... But you could walk THROUGH it! So advanced that isn't possible in this game!...

Basically, I wish the game was more complicated. More complicated puzzles, more complicated systems, more complicated everything! LoG 2 was a step back in my opinion. Made everything too simple and easy...

Jirodyne wrote:I also remember in that old game I played for a bit, you starting with 1 person, not 4, and were able to recruit NPCs found hidden in the game. Like a dwarf locked up in the Mines. It also had much more fun Magic system if I remember right too. What else... You find a keychain, to put all your keys on. You put the key on the keychain, then used the keychain and it would open any locks all the keys on it could open. It even had basic things like Invisable walls that look just like every other wall... But you could walk THROUGH it! So advanced that isn't possible in this game!...

You're thinking of Stonekeep, and invisible walls are absolutely possible in Grimrock (and extremely widely used in mods).

Galnospoke wrote:

thufir wrote: These complaints always amuse me because they betray a lack of knowledge about what dungeon crawlers and RPGs originated as. Grimrock and Grimrock 2 are both old-school dungeon crawlers in the finest and most accurate sense. Indeed, the least old-school thing about it is the real-time addition with regards to combat, which I find I enjoy regardless.

I ended: Dungeon Master, Dungeon Master 2 (partially - it was to stupid like LoG II ending), EoB 2 (9/10, almost perfect), EoB 3, Hired Guns, Black Crypt (imo best DC ever), some M&M, Fate (partially - my Amiga died!), all Ishar series (Ishar III sometime with solution, it was really hard game, best was imho II), Perihelion (oh! it was great! still have OST from this game), Wizardry (partially - enemies leveling system was hilarious), Elvira mistress of the dark (with solution, psychedelic game), Betrayal in... (I dont remember), Daggerfall & Morrowind (both partially - too huge and after hours of play too boring, no time to end), Oblivion & Skyrim (semi DC - again, too boring) and of course LoG I (great game). This titles I remember for now. Of course this are ONLY dungeon crawlers type, not all cRPG I played. And You really think that only You know what dungeon crawler is? Dream on.

Didn't see any Might and Magics, Bard's Tales, gold box D&D, etc. Dungeon Master and Dungeon Master 2 were very similar to this game, so I am not surprised you didn't like it, but they are direct descendants of the games I listed. Wizardries also had their fair share of puzzles, along with Wizards and Warriors which was their direct descendant. I really should mention the Infocom games here, too, since the Zork and Enchanter series were basically dungeon crawlers before graphics were invented, and they were basically nothing but puzzles; from those games came the graphical dungeon crawlers.

In conclusion: yes, you're not old-school enough to harken back to the old days from which this game was drawn. Which is fine by me, just amusing when you say it's "not a dungeon crawler".

Jirodyne wrote: While I have no played many of the 'old school' games. I do know 2 things. 1, they had better mechanics and puzzles. And 2, the secrets were actually hidden. For example I remember in one of them, right in the very beginning of the game there was a really powerful weapon hidden in a secret. But there was no button, or indication. You just had to click part of the wall, but the wall was textured the same as every other wall. The 'botton' was invisable. There was no sound, no 'pressed in' no change. Secrets were actually SECRET and HIDDEN. Unlike here in LoG 1 and 2. You see every single button, and there is only 1 button per wall texture. I also remember back in the day where the puzzles were a lot more challanging, and of course much more punishing.

For example, pitfalls used to be deadly. Now thanks to LoG 1 and 2, we know to go down EVERY pitfal, for they will almost always have a secret or loot for us. They should have changed things up in LoG 2. We have rope now to go down into holes right? They should have made pitfalls both deadly and not deadly, and force people to use the Rope to check. If you can't go down, it's deadly. And if it's not deadly, you will go down.

I also remember in that old game I played for a bit, you starting with 1 person, not 4, and were able to recruit NPCs found hidden in the game. Like a dwarf locked up in the Mines. It also had much more fun Magic system if I remember right too. What else... You find a keychain, to put all your keys on. You put the key on the keychain, then used the keychain and it would open any locks all the keys on it could open. It even had basic things like Invisable walls that look just like every other wall... But you could walk THROUGH it! So advanced that isn't possible in this game!...

Basically, I wish the game was more complicated. More complicated puzzles, more complicated systems, more complicated everything! LoG 2 was a step back in my opinion. Made everything too simple and easy...

"More complicated" is fair, but there were games that had secrets and easier ways to find them. Wizardries 6 and 7 gave you the "detect secret" spell, for example, which would make your little eye glow if you were in the same spot as a secret. But I have some sympathy for wanting things more difficult, although the internet makes it very hard to duplicate the difficulty of old-school games (if you get stuck on a puzzle, you just look it up; couldn't do that back in the day).

thufir wrote:although the internet makes it very hard to duplicate the difficulty of old-school games (if you get stuck on a puzzle, you just look it up; couldn't do that back in the day).

I say that there is no excuse not to make the game more complicated and hard then. Because if it's too much for the casual people, they can just look up the answers. While the Vets and people that came for the puzzles can have their fun solving it on their own, or just looking up hints. Back in the day, if a game was too hard no one would play it because as you pointed out, the Internet wasn't as refined, open, and used. People would stay away from games they heard were too mentally challanging because if they got stuck, that was it. With the internet being accessed by everyone not tho, I think it leaves no excuses to making hard and complicated puzzles, because if it's too much, you can look it up.

Edit:
A game like Dark Souls, if it's too hard looking up the answer will do nothing. The gameplay/combat is hard then, just telling you 'kill this guy' won't be much help if the issue is actually killing him. There might be stratagies, but still based on your skill. A puzzle tho? when you look up the answer, it instantly solves the problem. Combat or challanging AI or controls and other things, if they are too challanging you can't do much about it. A puzzle tho can be as complicated and challanging as puzzle, but as soon as you look up the answer it is instantly solved with no effert. So in my opinion, in LoG 3 make the game a whole lot more complicated and imdepth in game mechanics, magic/skill system, and puzzles. If it's too hard, peopel can just look up the answers easily.

Jirodyne wrote:

thufir wrote:although the internet makes it very hard to duplicate the difficulty of old-school games (if you get stuck on a puzzle, you just look it up; couldn't do that back in the day).

I say that there is no excuse not to make the game more complicated and hard then. Because if it's too much for the casual people, they can just look up the answers. While the Vets and people that came for the puzzles can help their fun solving it on their own, or just looking up hints. Back in the day, if a game was too hard no one would play it because as you pointed out, the Internet wasn't as refined, open, and used. People would stay away from games they heard were too mentally challanging because if they got stuck, that was it. With the internet being accessed by everyone not tho, I think it leaves no excuses to making hard and complicated puzzles, because if it's too much, you can look it up.

Yeah, the problem then is that everyone just looks it up. I rather like the difficulty of the puzzles in Grimrock, most of them were relatively easy to solve but still gave me a good feeling about solving them. But again, I am sympathetic to this viewpoint. It's a matter of opinion. I think the developers hit a good sweet spot, personally.