Grimrock

I think my main issue with this this game is the forced non-linearity when it is a clearly a linear game. This is a game where things become easier the higher level your characters become, so the main strategy is to go from easiest to hardest area.

You can do some areas in different orders, but it is much easier if you know which order which to progress in. This requires advanced knowledge of the game, especially when hints are needed to defeat puzzles and that defeats the purpose of non-linear order.

Also, since you can do many areas without finishing earlier ones, it is very easy to miss something vitally important in an earlier area which is needed later in the game. This has been my case in a few play throughs and I'm guessing many other people. This is what I meant in my earlier post about navel gazing in that the developers listen to hard core players and don't understand what most people play the game for.

The main disadvantage of this from a playing standpoint is that if you get stuck, you have no idea where you messed up. You then have to scan through all the levels you did, then backtrack and look for something you missed in the whole game you've progressed through so far. Ridiculous.

The game design is perfect for linear dungeon crawl and I wish the developers would deal with that. They should make a perfect game within the limitations.

Within the game, I think they made a very interesting balance of classes, skills, etc., mostly because of, my guess, feedback of experts and after playing it more, it is definitely an improvement over the first. Although a lot more difficult than the first. This could be since I've been an expert of Grimlock 1 and am used to knowing where everything is and how, where, and when to fight everything.

Mate, just because you had problems with some specific puzzles, that does NOT mean those are "Problems with Grimrock 2". On the contrary, if people are zipping through this game without hitting any walls, THEN there's a problem with the game because it's too soft. Nobody wants or needs another limp-dick game. Market has been flooded with that garbage for the last 10+ years.

As the people who have responded here have already pointed out, the pieces you needed to solve were there, you just missed 'em. Improve your gaming. Make more notes as you go through something like this. I ran a log of weird pieces of info that made no sense at the time I found them. Referred to it often and often found what I needed from that log to progress when I seemed stuck. I also maintained a special stash in the Hub for items which seemed to be puzzle components. T'was a life saver. And certainly, never ever throw out a note. Even if it seems you are done with it.

Don't get me wrong. I too had some major annoyances. For example, the lever puzzle in castle Nex (One II, Two V, Three III). I solved that puzzle on my own but the gate would not open. One of the few times I needed help online to progress. Turns out you had to reset the puzzle if your first attempt wasn't correct and I found that infuriating. I mean I figured out the puzzle on my own but something obscure was misleading me down other logic paths and I was butthurt because I HATE having to look for help online. But I sure as hell wasn't going to make a complaint thread about it because it was a small snag in an otherwise great game.

Improve your gaming, mate.

HotMaarl wrote:Mate, just because you had problems with some specific puzzles, that does NOT mean those are "Problems with Grimrock 2". On the contrary, if people are zipping through this game without hitting any walls, THEN there's a problem with the game because it's too soft. Nobody wants or needs another limp-dick game. Market has been flooded with that garbage for the last 10+ years.

As the people who have responded here have already pointed out, the pieces you needed to solve were there, you just missed 'em. Improve your gaming. Make more notes as you go through something like this. I ran a log of weird pieces of info that made no sense at the time I found them. Referred to it often and often found what I needed from that log to progress when I seemed stuck. I also maintained a special stash in the Hub for items which seemed to be puzzle components. T'was a life saver. And certainly, never ever throw out a note. Even if it seems you are done with it.

Don't get me wrong. I too had some major annoyances. For example, the lever puzzle in castle Nex (One II, Two V, Three III). I solved that puzzle on my own but the gate would not open. One of the few times I needed help online to progress. Turns out you had to reset the puzzle if your first attempt wasn't correct and I found that infuriating. I mean I figured out the puzzle on my own but something obscure was misleading me down other logic paths and I was butthurt because I HATE having to look for help online. But I sure as hell wasn't going to make a complaint thread about it because it was a small snag in an otherwise great game.

Improve your gaming, mate.

Guess you read my previous posts and not my latest one. My latest point was that the game was trying to be non-linear, when the mechanics of it doesn't fit. The characters level linearly and some areas are harder than others, so why try to make the game linear. It makes no sense to allow lvl 5 characters to be able to access areas that should be for lvl 10 characters when they could lvl much easier in other areas. That was part of the beauty and simplicity of grimrock 1. If they wanted to make a complicated lvl with 3 parts fine, but the problem I had is that they made the game too open and if you missed something vital, you were fscked unless you backtracked across all you did before, which would amount to that key or rune or whatever something stupid.

And FYI I don't enjoy making notes constantly while I'm playing, I like to play the game and enjoy it. I don't want to go back in time to where I had to make grid maps of everything I've done. Things progress and that was a necessity based on lack of computer resources to have to make maps ourselves.

Gath Of Baal wrote: Guess you read my previous posts and not my latest one. My latest point was that the game was trying to be non-linear, when the mechanics of it doesn't fit. The characters level linearly and some areas are harder than others, so why try to make the game linear. It makes no sense to allow lvl 5 characters to be able to access areas that should be for lvl 10 characters when they could lvl much easier in other areas. That was part of the beauty and simplicity of grimrock 1. If they wanted to make a complicated lvl with 3 parts fine, but the problem I had is that they made the game too open and if you missed something vital, you were fscked unless you backtracked across all you did before, which would amount to that key or rune or whatever something stupid.

And FYI I don't enjoy making notes constantly while I'm playing, I like to play the game and enjoy it. I don't want to go back in time to where I had to make grid maps of everything I've done. Things progress and that was a necessity based on lack of computer resources to have to make maps ourselves.

You don't have to make notes, there is an excellent automap. Making notes to that map is enough, for example write down the stone head clues there.

As pointed out earlier, there are lots of linear hand helding games in the marker already, I really wish you'r feedback won't make it to LoG3. The things you seem not to be enjoying are the ones I like.

Gath Of Baal wrote:And FYI I don't enjoy making notes constantly while I'm playing, I like to play the game and enjoy it. I don't want to go back in time to where I had to make grid maps of everything I've done. Things progress and that was a necessity based on lack of computer resources to have to make maps ourselves.

This is more of a playstyle issue than an actual core game problem. I, for one, love the Grimrock series because it really goes back to the days where you needed to take notes. Through LoG2, whenever I found a talking stone head, I marked my map and wrote their sentence out word for word. It was a great feeling for me to find a puzzle that I was a bit stumped on (Like the bit about 'the silent one') and suddenly figure it out after rereading my notes.

Not many games cater to the "dungeon survival simulation" genre, but Grimrock does, and it does it well. Making maps, writing notes, marking places of interest, collecting clues, examining every inch of every room for secret buttons and hidden passageways are all very immersive things.

I guess it just feels a bit silly to criticize Grimrock for being, well, Grimrock.

The biggest problem in this game is that that many puzzles require an item, hidden or not from an area you may or not have been to. I hate when I'm standing in front of a puzzle, trying my best to find a solution, when the reality is I have no chance because I haven't found a note that would give me a clear solution. That does not test your intellect. That does not test how you can think outside the box. It's only frustrating when you realize you can't get through the gate to a next area- not because you can't figure out a puzzle, but because you don't have the required tip from who knows where.

The most satisfying puzzles in grimrock 2 were the ones where all the tools you need to solve it were right in front of you. the one with the four pedestals for war, disease was pretty clever. As well as where you had to drop rocks from a floating platform onto the switches below. Puzzles should all be like that, puzzles that require tips from notes hidden throughout the world are outdated, and by all means quite pointless and frustrating. When I stand by a puzzle in grimrock 2, I have to think to myself "Is the solution to this something I can figure out here? Or am I missing a tip from god knows where?" That is bad game design.

If you were going to put in these hidden tips, make it so you don't even know that it was a puzzle that could be solved until you got it. So you don't spend ages trying to find a solution to a puzzle you cannot. A great example of this would be in grimrock 1 with the "Stand between the dragon's gaze" puzzle. It wasn't frustrating because I didn't even know there was a puzzle before I found that note, and it was for a bonus, no less.

To everyone in this thread saying things like "It must have been to hard for you, but it isn't for others, the game can't be tailored to your level of skill" You have the wrong idea of what the original complaint was. Not of difficulty, but what I was talking about above.

To pick this one out ...

Hucast wrote:...
The most satisfying puzzles in grimrock 2 were the ones where all the tools you need to solve it were right in front of you. the one with the four pedestals for war, disease was pretty clever. ...

You could have stand there also without the proper things to put in the 4 plagues holes, if you leave behind something that you need. Spoiler for the 4 plagues ahead! This is a reason why I carry all the stuff I find around. If I can not move, I return to my stach (locatate in a good to reach area from almost every place) and put the Stuff I think I do not need therre. If I come to a solution and I miss an object I return and get it from there (latley I stuffed all my torches there an have to get som from there to test sonething )

Jirodyne wrote:

Dr.Disaster wrote:non-linear game structure are not bad game design.

That is true, but I think here the 'non-linear' part hurts the game. For the first time player, it does make the game seem huge. Especially when they split puzzles up, they force a first time player to go to a different areas, to find out how to solve a puzzle in the first area. Good examples of this is going to the Cemetary to figure out the 'Silent One' puzzle, and going to the Archieves to figure out how to get INTO the Cemetary, having to explore ANOTHER puzzle, to figure out how to unlock the Archieves. For a first time player, that game isn't very 'non linear'.

You get to Sleet Island and your told 'Here are 4 areas, you can explore them in any order!.... But the Ruins will be too hard and big for unprepared first time players, the Pyremid you need to an item in the Bog and is very very hard for new players, the Bog is very very short, and if you haven't explored going into water yet and notice a later you miss out on part of the zone and if you don't explore EVERY inch, you'll miss the actual 'dungeon' that's hidden. And to get into the Cemetary, you have to complete or do most of the Ruins. 4 areas to explore, but to even unlock 2 you have to go to the other 2 first. So very 'non-linear'.

Now, if you have beaten the game, you know all the tricks and the solution to all the puzzles, the game IS non-linear, as you don't need to go to other places for hints, you already know the answer to advance forward. But at that point, what IS the point of the Non-Linear style? You already know how to do everything, so already know all the shortcuts, where everything is, and how to get to them.

I don't really agree.

Mind you, I'm entirely new to dungeon crawlers. I've played a ton of MMOs and regular RPGs but never a tile based dungeon crawler.

I'm loving the puzzles. None thus far has been based on guessing, every solution is perfectly logical and intuitive (sometimes in hindsight)

To get into the cemetery was entirely straight forward imho. Let's break it down step by step:
1) in the woods you already find a plate with AR E UHU E strongly implying that I'll have to learn a cypher at some point.
2) an early stone head says: there is one more willing to talk, go east beyond the gates. This implies that I have to get through the gates to get into that dooor.
3) the cemetary gate has a head saying the answers are sealed in the archives
4) at the archives, I immediately recognized the cypher. I realized I wasn't supposed to solve this without help.
5) lexiconary ... this isn't a hint, it's blatant hand holding.

To get into the cemetery was crystal clear to me. As a new player, I don't think new players have problems with it. Sure, it's a puzzle but it's probably the easiest puzzle in the game. I love how all those areas are connected though.

Secondly, the non-linear part really helps because if you get stuck, which happens, you can simply go into another area. Rarely is a single puzzle required to progress. More often than not, I solved a puzzle after a good night's sleep but that didn't mean I had to stop playing. I just went into another area.

As for the ruins being too hard, I sincerely didn't feel that way.

any6 wrote:

Jirodyne wrote:

Dr.Disaster wrote:To get into the cemetery was entirely straight forward imho. Let's break it down step by step:
1) in the woods you already find a plate with AR E UHU E strongly implying that I'll have to learn a cypher at some point.
2) an early stone head says: there is one more willing to talk, go east beyond the gates. This implies that I have to get through the gates to get into that dooor.
3) the cemetary gate has a head saying the answers are sealed in the archives
4) at the archives, I immediately recognized the cypher. I realized I wasn't supposed to solve this without help.
5) lexiconary ... this isn't a hint, it's blatant hand holding.

To get into the cemetery was crystal clear to me. As a new player, I don't think new players have problems with it. Sure, it's a puzzle but it's probably the easiest puzzle in the game. I love how all those areas are connected though.

It was easy to find the solution, but it is still padding for a first time through the game. After you already know the solution, you can't skip all those steps, those steps instantly become pointless as it just tells you how to complete the Cementary puzzle, which is pointless when you already know the solution.

And your other point, if a puzzle is too hard to go to a new one? THAT I am ok with. If a puzzle is too hard, come back later with a fresh mind. My problem is when they FORCE you to leave. While the Cementary entrance puzzle IS easy to follow, I don't like it because it Forces first time players to go into the Ruins. That isn't very linear in my eyes. The same with getting into the Pyramid, you have to go to the Bog to get the 'key' to enter. That one you can't get around, You ARE forced to go into the Bog before going to the Pyramid.

If the answer is in the area, in the same dungeon. Like a puzzle on the first floor needs something on the third floor, that is hidden behind a puzzle you find by completing one on the second floor. THAT I am ok with. Again, it's when they make you go out of the entire area/dungeon to get the solution. The other part is that when you DO know all the solutions, a LOT of the puzzles instantly become optional. In LoG 1, there were some puzzles that were only for secret/side items. But there was very little of them in the entire game, so even if you know everything in the game you still had to do most of the puzzles. Here in LoG 2, when you know all the answers, you can complete the game very very quickly. And because of the openness and 'balance' to the 'Non-linearity' You can suit up with the best gear very easily too, most of them being in Golden Locks and not even from puzzles or secrets.

Think of this, why else would the final boss drop a Master Key that unlocks every thing in the game, as if it expect you to have a lot to explore after you beat the game and not want to find keys and solve puzzles...

Jirodyne wrote:
It was easy to find the solution, but it is still padding for a first time through the game. After you already know the solution, you can't skip all those steps, those steps instantly become pointless as it just tells you how to complete the Cementary puzzle, which is pointless when you already know the solution.

And your other point, if a puzzle is too hard to go to a new one? THAT I am ok with. If a puzzle is too hard, come back later with a fresh mind. My problem is when they FORCE you to leave. While the Cementary entrance puzzle IS easy to follow, I don't like it because it Forces first time players to go into the Ruins. That isn't very linear in my eyes. The same with getting into the Pyramid, you have to go to the Bog to get the 'key' to enter. That one you can't get around, You ARE forced to go into the Bog before going to the Pyramid.

And how's that a bad thing? The world unlocks as you progress but as soon as you enter sleet island, you already have three ways to go (or 4 if you left stuff unfinished in the woods). That's enough. By the time I entered the cemetery I had unlocked the Hamlet, Crystal Mines and tried to figure out the huge Meteor secret (that stretches across 4 maps)

Moderation is key in this case. The game game usually gives you multiple options but never too many.

If the answer is in the area, in the same dungeon. Like a puzzle on the first floor needs something on the third floor, that is hidden behind a puzzle you find by completing one on the second floor. THAT I am ok with. Again, it's when they make you go out of the entire area/dungeon to get the solution. The other part is that when you DO know all the solutions, a LOT of the puzzles instantly become optional.

This is where I'll have to agree to disagree. If you have an open world, the answer might be somewhere else entirely as long as it's clear where you have to go. The meteor puzzle again stretches out over many maps but (imho) was very easy to solve. The most difficult puzzles in the game are entirely localized.

That's good design. There's different ways to make a good puzzle. You seem to prefer one type, and that's fine. I prefer different options. I like Grimrock 2 because it has a fairly good balance between large puzzles that make you scavenge the world, difficult brainteasers and simply having you zerged by imba mobs (looking at you ratling boss)

In LoG 1, there were some puzzles that were only for secret/side items. But there was very little of them in the entire game, so even if you know everything in the game you still had to do most of the puzzles. Here in LoG 2, when you know all the answers, you can complete the game very very quickly. And because of the openness and 'balance' to the 'Non-linearity' You can suit up with the best gear very easily too, most of them being in Golden Locks and not even from puzzles or secrets.

You could complete Myst in less than 20 seconds on a second playthrough. That is to say, I don't agree that this is necessarily bad. I'm not trying to be apologetic. The game is what it is. Whether you like it is in the proverbial eye of the beholder. Complaining about games isn't really a hobby of mine. Stuff I don't like in games is usually stuff I don't do.