Android Request

[trev186]

I would happily pledge more than $1000 for Grimrock on Android

[martyrius]

Given the size of their team I think the odds of seeing an android port are actually pretty small.
However, you should really search for Deadly Dungeons on the android market

Yeah, Deadly Dungeons - I've played it yesterday on my android tablet ... actually it reminded me of Legend of Grimrock, which I wanted to play when it was released, but didn't, when I found out it's on PC only. I could play it on PC, but this is kind of game I would like to play on smartphone/tablet ... preferably tablet (screen large enough, but not too large). So I put LoG to bookmark section of my browser, regularly checking if there's some new info about Android port.

Actually... I'd support this. There are more of us Android users than there are iOS users, so it would make sense to port the game to Android first.

True that. Sadly, developers usually make iOS version first and later (if they're kind enough) make Android port ... of iOS port

But statistics are clear:

any search for Android vs iOS will show results of Android being sold (and used worldwide) more than iOS ... so making Android version is more logical, more profitable and maybe even easier (or more difficult - I'm not a programmer).

But the point is, either iOS or Android, it should be profitable. Legend of Grimrock sold so many copies on PC - It will surely sell few hundred of thousands of copies on ANDR/IOS ...

which is good, right ?

[Sol_HSA]

True that. Sadly, developers usually make iOS version first and later (if they're kind enough) make Android port ... of iOS port

But statistics are clear:

any search for Android vs iOS will show results of Android being sold (and used worldwide) more than iOS ... so making Android version is more logical, more profitable and maybe even easier (or more difficult - I'm not a programmer).

But the point is, either iOS or Android, it should be profitable. Legend of Grimrock sold so many copies on PC - It will surely sell few hundred of thousands of copies on ANDR/IOS ...

which is good, right ?

If it only were that simple.

Let's get this over with: I have nothing against an android port. I'd love it if it ran on my humble allwinner tablet, even.

But as a developer, comparing the iOS and android markets is heavily stacked in favor of iOS.

First, there's (basically) only one iOS platform. Sure, there's several devices, several generations of devices, and a few form factors, but you only need to target one store, and you probably only want to target one version of the OS. Majority if iOS owners tend to upgrade to the latest version, and as such there's pretty little fragmentation.

If you want to play it safe, you need some four devices or so to test on, but a couple is "probably" fine.

On android, the market is splintered like crazy. There's a bunch of different "app stores", including notorious amazon one (which plays the game of, we have the volume, wanna play with us? then give up a lot of your rights). Users most often don't have the option to update the OS, so there's plenty of different versions out there. Due to the openness of the platform, device manufacturers are free to make custom versions of the OS to boot. You probably want to test on as many devices as you can lay your hands on, and hope for the best for the rest. Expect support chaos.

I won't even touch the piracy aspect.

So yeah, making an iOS version first makes a lot of business sense. And a lot of the technical hurdles getting stuff on iOS apply to an android version (getting to run on OpenGL ES, on ARM, on touch interface, aspect ratios, content size limits, bootstrapping from non-native binary, etc).

So no, the statistics ain't all that clear.

[martyrius]

Thanks for making matters more clear. You're the expert (and if not expert, then at least someone who knows about this more) ... my point was to raise some topics, throw some info and see if they're correct at all.

First, there's (basically) only one iOS platform

So if you devs create a game on iOS, it will work on different ... models, right ? I mean - over the years, Apple has been creating new devices, improving old ones. One game will work on device from 2008 as on something from 2013 ? And if not, it would be simple to update for various devices ?

That may be the reason why (in 2010-2012 at least), so much games were produced for iOS, while not so many for Android.

What's the trend here then, is 2013 gonna see a change in this attitude ? iOS is probably still going to dominate, but is his position lessening or is it staying the same ?

---------------------------

I have to admit I only used Google Play store, haven't had any dealings with other ones ... never had to, because all the stuff I need is there. The app I haven't found there was TVtropes app (it was on Amazon Store for free), which I stopped using anyway.

Isn't it more like Google Play is the main market (situation similar to late 90s and early 00s with InternetExplorer - it was preinstalled on +/- every computer, so people tended to use what they had, cause it was easier) app, simply because it offers services good enough, it is on every android consumer oriented device (I hope I'm correct).

You're correct about upgrading OS versions of Android - I bought my tablet with ICS 4.0.3 and got upgrade to 4.0.4, but I don't suppose I will ever get Jelly Bean. No sir, I don't expect this at all, I will be stuck with ICS till the day I buy something better.

There are many Android versions, but let's face it, only those with 2.2 Froyo and later matters, which cuts it (according to this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_version_history
) in half. And maybe there's not much of a difference between 4.0 ICS and 4.0.3 ICS ... there will be a difference between ICS and HoneyComb I think.


THOUGH look at Google Chrome for Android devices - it works only on ICS and later, which is also a way how to deal with legacy versions ... look at Microsoft and their support of apps for older versions of Windows (not working all the time to say the least), or even DOS games (if you have one, you have to use DosBox)

And a lot of the technical hurdles getting stuff on iOS apply to an android version

Um, this is a good thing or bad ? I mean - if you have to overcome some technical limitations/obstacles on iOS, wouldn't the same process (or similar) apply to Android version as well, so you wouldn't have to start from square one again ?

I won't even touch the piracy aspect.

True that, they say it's a scourge of developers, but still, games are being made on all platforms. They (who?) also say that piracy on PC is at all time high (though I dare to say that 90s were wild too ... and cassette recorders of 80s as well), but games can be pirated on every platform, so when comparing 360/3 vs PC, you get piracy on all these platforms ... not sure about correct numbers though (if it can even be counted).

The point is, you can pirate games on iOS. I haven't tried, but I think it should be possible (as much as I can read from articles found on the internet)


You used phrase "won't even touch", I would use it for "how Apple devices are so expensive in contrast to cheap (sometimes made from less quality materials/Android is on the rise, in similar manner as Firefox slowly defeated InternetExplorer ... or perhaps in similar manner as Google Chrome which quickly defeated Firefox. I could have ended as Apple user as well, if only they haven't been so expensive. And that's not just me, more people will think like me (I think)


I will end these thoughts and opinions with one simple assumption - many games these days are released on PC/iOS/ANDR ... or even on portable devices market, many, so so many developers do iOS and Android versions. I mean - you wouldn't be the first to do that, right ? There are already people doing this and making profit of it.


Big thanks for dealing with my observations/opinions and points Sol_HSA, the discussion is much appreciated.

EDIT: added quote tags -- Sol_HSA

[Sol_HSA]

First, there's (basically) only one iOS platform

So if you devs create a game on iOS, it will work on different ... models, right ? I mean - over the years, Apple has been creating new devices, improving old ones. One game will work on device from 2008 as on something from 2013 ? And if not, it would be simple to update for various devices ?

Yes, apple has striven to keep the platform from fragmenting. The developers don't need to deploy for all of the devices, of course, but if your interface is resolution-agnostic, one binary will work on all of the devices supported by the iOS version you compile for. In theory, at least =)

That may be the reason why (in 2010-2012 at least), so much games were produced for iOS, while not so many for Android.

What's the trend here then, is 2013 gonna see a change in this attitude ? iOS is probably still going to dominate, but is his position lessening or is it staying the same ?

I doubt any massive change will occur in the near future.

I have to admit I only used Google Play store, haven't had any dealings with other ones ... never had to, because all the stuff I need is there. The app I haven't found there was TVtropes app (it was on Amazon Store for free), which I stopped using anyway.

Okay. Due to the fragmentation, you could see android as several distinct platforms (that just happen to run almost, or completely, same binary). One of these pseudoplatforms is the Kindle Fire:



..which primarily has access to amazon store. I don't even know if they CAN access any other stores. You can google for rants regarding the amazon app store from developers' point of view. But let's just say it's a bad deal.

Isn't it more like Google Play is the main market (situation similar to late 90s and early 00s with InternetExplorer - it was preinstalled on +/- every computer, so people tended to use what they had, cause it was easier) app, simply because it offers services good enough, it is on every android consumer oriented device (I hope I'm correct).

Yes, it's the default, but manufacturers can do what they want.

There are many Android versions, but let's face it, only those with 2.2 Froyo and later matters, which cuts it (according to this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_version_history
) in half. And maybe there's not much of a difference between 4.0 ICS and 4.0.3 ICS ... there will be a difference between ICS and HoneyComb I think.

Depending on the features you need, it's entirely possible to make an android app that works on every single android device from 1.0 onwards. But technology being what it is, you can never be sure. The more features you want to use, the higher you rise the bar, and at the same time, the more devices you rule out, reducing your potential target market..

It's the same thing on all platforms, of course. You can still make new apps for iphone 3gs even though apple has basically ceased to support it. On the other hand, dropping support for 3gs won't greatly affect your target market (first, the percentage of 3gs' on the market compared to newer devices is rather small, and second, if you're still on 3gs, how likely are you to spend money on apps anyway?).

Or let's say you're making an OpenGL application on windows. Want to support wide range of computers? Forget shaders. Want to use geometry shaders? Your target market just shrunk a lot.

The problem is just a lot less severe on iOS.

And a lot of the technical hurdles getting stuff on iOS apply to an android version

Um, this is a good thing or bad ? I mean - if you have to overcome some technical limitations/obstacles on iOS, wouldn't the same process (or similar) apply to Android version as well, so you wouldn't have to start from square one again ?

It was just a comment since you said android gets a port of a port. You tackle the same issues for either of the platforms.

I won't even touch the piracy aspect.

...
The point is, you can pirate games on iOS. I haven't tried, but I think it should be possible (as much as I can read from articles found on the internet)

Sure, but that in most cases requires doing things most iOS users wouldn't dream of doing, while piracy on android seems much more commonplace. I don't know why this is, but it's a fact.

You used phrase "won't even touch", I would use it for "how Apple devices are so expensive in contrast to cheap (sometimes made from less quality materials/Android is on the rise, in similar manner as Firefox slowly defeated InternetExplorer ... or perhaps in similar manner as Google Chrome which quickly defeated Firefox. I could have ended as Apple user as well, if only they haven't been so expensive. And that's not just me, more people will think like me (I think)

I don't know. From a philosophical and personal preference stand point, I'd like to see apple crash and burn along with their walled gardens - well, maybe I wouldn't go quite that far, but I really hate the way they're limiting things, and it worries me, especially since now it seems microsoft wants to move in the same direction. Maybe it'll be year of linux on desktop before long..

I will end these thoughts and opinions with one simple assumption - many games these days are released on PC/iOS/ANDR ... or even on portable devices market, many, so so many developers do iOS and Android versions. I mean - you wouldn't be the first to do that, right ? There are already people doing this and making profit of it.

From a pure business perspective, everything comes down to a few simple equations.

You have limited resources, time being the most precious one. How do you apply the resources for the biggest return of investment?

Time and money are often equaled, but they are only interchangeable to a degree.

Maybe it would make sense for AH to hire 20 new programmers - throw money at the problem, so to speak - but it's not quite that simple. First, from pure business point of view, getting those people up to speed would take AH's current, sole programmer all of his time for the next year or more. Also, justifying those people would require massive sales from the ports they'd work on (including their salary, the salary of the people who teach him, equipment, etc).

Second, finding those people is very, very hard. The class of people they want are generally tied elsewhere. They doubtlessly want to work with people they like to hang around with, reducing the potential pool further. And the whole recruitment process, yet again, burns time that could be spent on other things.

Note, since it may not be clear: I don't work for Almost Human. None of the moderators do.

[Azrael]

Never understood fow blogs work, but I've read how people aways apologize for posting things on old blogs, so first of all, I'm sorry for this.

I registered just to raise my hand in favor of an Android version of Grimrock. I would gladly pay full PC lunch retail price for a mobile port of both games!

Thank you, and be safe!