Do pits play it to safe?

[Isaac]

And the only true deathtrap in Eye2 isn't a pit, it's a door with wispers warning you not to come closer... you see all kinds of loot, he warns you again and if you then still go towards the voice/loot the door closes and there is no way out anymore...

There is a trick IIRC, (certainly unintentional); supposedly you can cast a Wall in the open door and it won't close; afterward you can pass through it. However the game is unprepared for this and becomes unplayable at some point.

[Thels]

And the only true deathtrap in Eye2 isn't a pit, it's a door with wispers warning you not to come closer... you see all kinds of loot, he warns you again and if you then still go towards the voice/loot the door closes and there is no way out anymore...

There's several of those in EoB2, but you get a fair warning and immediately realize you're completely stuck. Also, you have 6 save slots.

I'm not exactly sure where it was. It was ages ago. It could also be very possible that I had been on that floor before and had opened or closed some doors.

I was genuinely stuck, not just in a position where I was too overwhelmed by mobs.

[Thels]

And the only true deathtrap in Eye2 isn't a pit, it's a door with wispers warning you not to come closer... you see all kinds of loot, he warns you again and if you then still go towards the voice/loot the door closes and there is no way out anymore...

There is a trick IIRC, (certainly unintentional); supposedly you can cast a Wall in the open door and it won't close; afterward you can pass through it. However the game is unprepared for this and becomes unplayable at some point.

I've seen that video. Basically, EoB1/EoB2 can only handle 2 monster types at the same time, and switching floors changes these monster types.

One of the death traps leads to a fight with a single cleric on a level that already uses 2 monster types, so entering the death trap replaces those 2 monster types by the cleric and garbage. When you exit the death trap (which is impossible without wall of force or hacking), the other monsters on the level all look like clerics or garbage.

[Ixnatifual]

I think I agree with DJK. For when the editor comes out I'm making the following notes with regards to using pits in the dungeons I'm building:

- Falling into a pit should never provide extra loot.
- There should always be a way out of a pit.
- It can be Ok to use pit diving as part of a puzzle solution, provided it's hinted doing so might be necessary.

Sounds fair?

[Isaac]

I think I agree with DJK. For when the editor comes out I'm making the following notes with regards to using pits in the dungeons I'm building:

- Falling into a pit should never provide extra loot.
- There should always be a way out of a pit.
- It can be Ok to use pit diving as part of a puzzle solution, provided it's hinted doing so might be necessary.

Sounds fair?

I don't think it should never provide loot... it should just be unexpected and not without risks that rarely pay off.
(After all... someone could fall in a pit [die], and leave their loot behind; but that should be the exception, not the rule.)

I do think there should be a way out, but not necessarily an easy way. It's fun when the pit opens to an area that you'd never otherwise find ~but only if it stays novel... If you start to expect it then it becomes routine.

[Ixnatifual]

The reason I put never being that once you show that there's good loot to be had down the pits, you're practically telling the player he has to drop into all pits just in case he might miss out on the potential good loot down there. I'd probably be OK with putting loot that isn't really useful to the player down there. Such as sandals at a point where the player will clearly already have sandals or better equipment on all of his characters.

I'm thinking it might also be a good general rule to always make the destination of a pit accessible without falling into the pit. This kind of ties into the above. It would be fine to have good loot down a pit as long as the player would get that loot anyway if he avoided the pit. After all, he'll likely pass that area after going to the next level normally.

Completionists would probably be annoyed if they couldn't map out all of the dungeon without jumping into all of the pits.

[Isaac]

The reason I put never being that once you show that there's good loot to be had down the pits, you're practically telling the player he has to drop into all pits just in case he might miss out on the potential good loot down there. I'd probably be OK with putting loot that isn't really useful to the player do.

I say let them (so what?). If they want to dive in the pits they should be allowed; but they should find themselves hurting a lot from the falls, and not happy about starting a fight injured, or landing in an area where the only way out is another pit or two; with the prospect running out of healing potions, and/or starting a fight injured with monsters that appear two or more levels down ~that they've possibly never seen before, and are unprepared for... and the need to fight their way through unknown levels to get back to where they were.

[Jirodyne]

The reason I put never being that once you show that there's good loot to be had down the pits, you're practically telling the player he has to drop into all pits just in case he might miss out on the potential good loot down there.

Even if the makers didn't put good loot down there, You should jump down there anyways. Why? Cause it's optional, it's something new, there is always SOMETHING down there, even if that something is a dead-end, or death. One thing you seem to be forgetting, along with everyone else it seems, is the ability to SAVE at ANY time and ANY where. Don't know what is down that pit? Save, then drop down and look. Oh look! awesome treasure! keep going. Save at the next pit. Drop down and find... Oh look, a dead end, with no way back! Whatever will I do?!?!?!..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... ..... ........ ....... Load the save in front of the pit, turn and onward to the next one!

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Is that REALLY so hard? complicated? and advance stuff?

Really, you should be saving in 5 different slots, before you do ANYTHING at all. Click a button, open a door, fight a monster, drop down a pit. If things don't go your way, just reload last save. You will lose like, 5 mins of play? But gain 5 minutes of knowledge.

[Ixnatifual]

I'm not forgetting that you can save - in fact that's what I did all the time. Save, jump down. If it was a useful place, stay. If I'd been there before, load. Why did I do it? Because there's sometimes loot (or other interesting stuff) in them. If pits aren't worthwhile, why should you spend time taking damage by going into them?

I'm not necessarily saying it's wrong to make pit diving something you should always do. But personally I'd like to try out the "pits are dangerous" style, as that seems more logical to me.

[Thels]

Indeed, if any pit has interesting loot in it (an actual item upgrade, or several useful consumables, not some old armor item you're outgearing already), and you can only access the loot through the pit, you're basically provoking players to jump down every pit to see what goodies will be waiting down there.

Sure, completionists will always jump down every pit, and there's nothing you can do that'll stop them from doing that.

However, I think it would be nice if the casual player can trust the dungeon that he can happily make his way up or down the dungeon without purposely jumping down every single hole and not miss out on any loot or special treasure for doing so, not unless there was clear information that there's something to gain from jumping down a specific pit.



I don't think any pit should be a dead end. Sure, we can load and save, but having to rely on that quite breaks the suspension of disbelief. I do think we should be able to continue the game from any point without getting ourselves stuck (with the exception of course of being surrounded by monsters while health is getting low).