Grimrock

Darlos9D wrote: Sigh, I can't wait for fan-generated content to start happening. This games longevity will be nearly infinite at that point.

Well Juho, Olli and Antti were back from holiday on the 28th, none of them have posted yet though. (Waves, hey guys!) Petri will be back soon to, then he can get cracking again on the editor again!

Daniel.

Brude wrote: The only two drawbacks (and they're small ones) is that the dexterity bonuses in the Missiles tree are almost completely useless for backline rogues, especially Minotaurs

My current party has a front row missile minotaur rogue, the dex from missiles helps him be extra dodgy. He's pretty good.

Daniel.

is there any difference between negative and zero evasion?

podbelski wrote:is there any difference between negative and zero evasion?

No official answer however this thread suggests that negative evasion makes you more likely to be hit.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1668&p=20387&hilit= ... ion#p16176

Daniel.

So here's a build I just started using that I'm liking a whole lot: two missle rogues in front, two throwing rogues in back. The missile rogues are max dex lizardmen with Evasion and Agile as traits. One uses a regular bow (first the short bow, and later the crookhorn bow), and the other a crossbow. I figured the missile users would be best in front, since that skill gives you more dex. Every point of dex adds 2 evasion, so with the proper application of cloaks and clothing, the two front guys can be pretty hard to hit. This actually makes good use of the dex boosts, which would otherwise be wasted in the back row. The throwing rogues are max str minotaurs with Aggressive and Head Hunter. I arrange the throwing weapons between them however I feel is necessary, moving skulls around to offset any differences in damage. While they don't get hit as much anyway, they still have a lot of vitality, and the throwing skill adds extra HP. Their dex is crappy so I just pile on heavy armor, not caring about the hit to evasion. They can afford to carry it all, between starting with so much strength and getting even more as they level up.

Once you manage to get the crossbow in the secret slime maze area accessed from Pillars of Light, your team is practically fully outfitted offensively. The only thing you're really missing at that point is the crookhorn bow and throwing axes. Granted, its a bit awkward to reach that point since your frontliners are stuck using melee weapons until you get both their bows, but once you do, you're set. Then once you get Volley and Double Throw, you can just unleash a torrent of deadly flying objects upon everything you come across.

You should probably hang on to a couple melee weapons for your front liners, and a couple spears for your back row guys. Just in case.

EDIT: Ahaha. This team absolutely destroyed the Fighter's Challenge. And I did it right when I got to Trapped, since it was in Trapped I leveled up enough to get Volley/Double Throw. Those little green bastards went down like so many weeds.

Thanks a lot for the great posts. A lot of good information in them, way more than I expected.

Unfortunately, they still leave me with some questions and choices. It sounds like I should also not be too pleased I didn't understand some things about the game it doesn't make clear, like having some bonuses hearlier helps more because it only helps later levels (and says I've lost bonuses saving a lot of points for several levels until I pick).

I saw axes advised for my minotaur warrior, but a reason was 'because of the evade penalties on heavy armor', but I have 16 points in armor, so no evade penalties? So are swords better? (Someone asked what sword he has on level 5; it has 14 AP and 15 speed (I assume higher speed is better) For axe he has one with 20 AP and 9 speed.

(Unfortunately he's facing a big battle, and putting all his points in swords leaves him 1 short of the first special skill). He has 15 evasion with heavy armor. Any more than his 1 point in Athletics worth it?

I'm still undecided on backstab or daggers for my frontline rogue. Reason for: I have an ideal party for it, with an ice mage and an air mage. Reason against: I don't really like the idea of more fast movement constantly trying to go side, forward, forward, left, turn, turn, attack every time the enemy is frozen for a backstab; and how much damage will that lose in missed attacks? And how many battles will it not even work because I can't get behind the enemy, whether because multiple enemies block it, or might be attacking while one is frozen, or if I'm in a space to I have only one enemy to attack but can't move behind?

So all these bonuses like '+1 strength' in swords are *per level after you get them*? Many I've lost a lot of bonuses then (level 7 chars now). My rogue has 0 pojnts in dodge, so no +5 evasion bonus with 2 points - has he really lost six level increases times 5 evasion for a 30 point evasion loss from that?

Lizard rogue has 4 points in assassination (I started going that tree) so it'd only be 4 more for backstab, but seems like I should either really go one tree or the other, backstab is a whole strategy it seems. Leaning towards just sticking all the points in daggers now, after the recommended 2 in dodge (though some recommend going for the 24 point double evasion from cloth?)

My rogue has a 12/20 dagger and a 7/20 dagger with +5 accuracy, I don't know how to weigh the damage and accuracy bonuses but guess the 12/20 is better? Not an issue now though, he keeps the +5 accuracy in the range slot so he gets the bonus, but could be an issue if he has to pick between weapons for mainhand later.

Not sure about strength versus Dex versus vitality versus willpower for either the warrior rogue, I've even forgotten whether I get to add to them as I level, haven't played for a bit.

For my two mages... I'll go 10 points in spellcraft for both of them for the 25% casting bonus (and equipping weapons I read?), rest in air and ice. (18 points for 50% cast speed worth it?)

(Still trying to find out what my 22 point air and 19 point ice spells are among others, don't want to cheat on the web but this game makes it hard to find out, I've tried pretty much every 3-rune combination looking for both of them. I just use frostbolt and lightning bolt now, but run out of energy too soon, usually running out during one battle).

You get the bonuses listed with the skills once and immediately. If a skill gives +1 Strength, you get a total of +1 Strength for leveling that skill that far, regardless if you do that at level 1 or level 14.

However, some skills give +Vitality and +Willpower. Every 2 points in Vitality above 10 gives +5 health at level 1 and +1 health per level (while Vitality below 10 reduces your health). However, the health is not applied retroactively.

For example, if you pick skilled and level Athletics to 5 points at level 1, it immediately gives +5 health, and then +1 health per level, for a total of 17 health at level 13. If you only level Athletics to 5 points at level 4, it only gives the +1 health per level on all further levels, for a total of 9 health at level 13.

Willpower affects energy in the exact same way.

So for Vitality and Willpower you want to pick them as soon as possible if you pick them. For the other skills it doesn't matter when you pick them (except of course that the earlier you pick them the longer you benefit from it).

However, you do not need an optimal party and skill division to complete the game! If you don't suffer from OCD, just keep on going and you'll be perfectly fine.

Craig234 wrote:My rogue has a 12/20 dagger and a 7/20 dagger with +5 accuracy, I don't know how to weigh the damage and accuracy bonuses but guess the 12/20 is better? Not an issue now though, he keeps the +5 accuracy in the range slot so he gets the bonus, but could be an issue if he has to pick between weapons for mainhand later.

Not sure if I understand what you mean by "range slot" but if you mean the other (left?) hand, then this +5 accuracy bonus doesn't count if you attack with Fist Dagger that you hold in "main" hand. The bonus is added only to your attacks made with weapon which has such bonus.

Merethif wrote:

Craig234 wrote:My rogue has a 12/20 dagger and a 7/20 dagger with +5 accuracy, I don't know how to weigh the damage and accuracy bonuses but guess the 12/20 is better? Not an issue now though, he keeps the +5 accuracy in the range slot so he gets the bonus, but could be an issue if he has to pick between weapons for mainhand later.

Not sure if I understand what you mean by "range slot" but if you mean the other (left?) hand, then this +5 accuracy bonus doesn't count if you attack with Fist Dagger that you hold in "main" hand. The bonus is added only to your attacks made with weapon which has such bonus.

Oh, so I may as well keep a torch in that hand. Thanks. Lot this game doesn't make clear in the manual.