Grimrock

Guys, be nice to each other, no name calling please.

Daniel.

RedOwl wrote:Trying to say that my DPS is less than pure damage build is also not true. If you have pure dps build you CAN"T stand in front of an enemy. If you can't stand face to face you have to run circles you CAN"T run fast enough from enemy to use your weapon at max rate of fire. You just can't before they will hit you. Anytime you go behind a corner or you do 2x2 dance monster will be no at the line of fire and you dps is wasted.

I'm starting to think you are just trolling here. There is no way you can stand in a fair fight against end game monster no matter what defensive capabilities you have. I doubt your party could even defeat a single ice lizard while standing still.

This is exactly why DPS is less important than burst damage. And my burst damage is on the same level as lvled archers.

Thank you that you come to the same conclusion. If you can't stand still you can't have full dps your archery skill gives you.

You can easily do 2x2 dance with a single monster and use all your attacks as soon as they come of the cooldown. That is the fastest way to take out an enemy without taking damage. Also with a good dps you can still win if you get cornered. I really doubt you can say the same with your party.

You are saying, that if IM cornered with 4 FULL TANKS I have LESS chances that you maxed dps glass canon party?

Now who is trolling here?

That is exactly what I'm saying. You may last a little longer with your higher defence but monsters will also last a lot longer thanks to your crappy dps. If you kill your enemies quicker they cannot hurt you as much. If you get surrounded you can maybe kill one of the monsters and escape if you do it quickly enough but any prolonged battle of attrition is a death sentence no matter what defensive powers you have.

MMM lets see you have say 100 dps and 100 HP

I have 60dps and 400 HP

Who has better chances?

And why again I have crappy damage? My front damage is way more than any of you front tanks. And your back skilled archers are better. In total party damage output is not that different.

RedOwl wrote:This is exactly why DPS is less important than burst damage. And my burst damage is on the same level as lvled archers.

You keep saying this with out doing any math.

Your base minotaur archer does the same damage at start as a traditional minotaur archer (i.e., maxed from a 21 STR).

The difference is yours only improves (outside of weapons) with what little strength you get from athletics. Even if you went 33 points into athletics (the max STR bonus), that's all of 5 extra STR. That's 2.5 extra attack points. 33 Points into missile gets you roughly 8 extra attack points per attack, firing two arrows per shot. Each arrow is 6.5 extra attack points higher than yours (equal to 13 extra strength) and you're "bursting" for two of them. That single dedicated archer is doing more damage than two of your skill-less archers, looking at burst alone. Damage over time is even more dramatic, given the 50% greater fire rate.

The difference is even more dramatic for a thrower. At 36 skill points, throwing has a strength bonus of +4, which is nearly the +5 you get from athletics. 7.5 extra attack points per throw compared to yours (equal to 15 STR), two throws per use, and 50% faster rate.

By endgame, a 21 STR, dedicated minotaur archer (ignoring perk selection) is doing 41 attack points with a crookhorn bow (10 (str) + 19 (weapon/ammo) + 12 (skill)), two arrows per use, 150% fire rate, double crit chance. Your jack of all trades archer, maxed athletics, is doing 33 attack points with a crookhorn (13 (str) + 19 (weapon/ammo)), single arrow, base attack rate. That's 80% of the attack point value per arrow, at half the arrows. Basically, 40% of the burst attack point value; 27% DPS. Now, I don't think that attack points convert directly to damage, but you can see that one dedicated archer is substantially better than two of yours, even looking just at burst. As per the above, the math for a thrower is even more dramatic.

To summarize again, your 4 jack-of-all trades have a ranged burst damage that is slightly worse than 2 dedicated ranged characters at midgame and will progressively get substantially worse past midgame. Their DPS is about 2/3rds of the dedicated throwers at midgame and maybe as low as 1/3 at endgame. That's looking at pure ranged damage and ignoring any melee contribution from dedicated melee tanks. That's also ignoring having to spread ammo and weapons around. In summary, you way overestimate the contribution of STR to damage and way undervalue skill points into attack skills.

@RedOwl: Pulling numbers out of your ass is not going to prove anything. Just 2 dedicated ranged rogues are going to do way more damage than your whole party combined. Just by having the ability to fire 2-shots per attack is going to put them on the same line with your whole party. Then add the fact that they are doing more damage per shot thanks to weapon skill bonus. Finally add the fact that they are getting +50% attack speed bonus. And that is not even counting the 2 warriors on the front who do even more damage on the melee. At very least my party deals 3 or 4 times more dps than yours. And it is not like my front row is going naked or something. They can still wear armor and get decent protection or evasion. Maxing your defensive skills is not going to matter that much.

To use your pointless example:

My 200 dps compared your 50 dps. My 100 health compared to your 150 health.

And I think you are overestimating value of pure on paper END GAME output and discounting all the value from start mid game, protection and health gain from armor skills and ability switch front and last rows of chars around as I do.