The Mage-less Party?

[King Tulla]

I dont play with a mage ^^

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1309

[Empyrean]

I have completed the game with 2 fighters up front 2 rogues in back and no range skills what so ever. Torch management is a non-issue there are so many on the walls you will never run out only need to keep maybe 2 on you at any given time just to be safe because most times when one is about to go there is one near by on a wall you can swap with. And even if you do lose all your light the dark is not as crippling as you might think.

I don't doubt that you can do it with all melee. I wouldn't want to, though; ranged attacks are comparable to melee attacks in overall power with adequate skill investment in each (they are somewhat weaker initially, but scale better with double attacks and attack speed bonuses), and being able to fight from a distance when a 2x2 room isn't readily available is very convenient. I was actually considering a four Rogue party for my second playthrough, but decided against in favor of doing a more balanced party and writing about it.

Torches aren't a big deal, but I still don't like having to keep track of them. A Mage is a convenience on that front, not a requirement.

[Hissssa]

More or less true. I think the only one I would like to have had was the fire resist/shield but I got through the game mageless so its not a must have.

If I cast fire shield only my minotaur takes damage and he takes about 5 per hit. When I fought the 4 lantern guys only poison and lightning really hurt my team (but I dodged 99% of the magic that could hurt me).

Yes there is enough good are for 4 melee types. I had two heavy armor guys a light armor guy and a clothy with no problems with armor. Heck there was extra light and heavy armor to spare that I abounded. Mages get a hat and a cloak Whoopy. And while they have a few nice weapons it is nothing to write home about.

There is one set of valor armor, one set of chitin armor, one set of evasion armor and two sets of platemail. You get the good light armor long before you get the good heavy armor. For most of the game you can't have everyone in good armor. Yea at the end it works out just fine if you found everything but you're also giving up a couple of nice treasures (gold key options). Chitin is good for a rogue but somewhat pathetic for a fighter really. Mages can wear the evasion armor too you know right? I think you missed using the hat properly.... it can give you a ton of extra energy.

Nothing in the game beats the power of a mage to freeze targets in place.

Ice Fall Hammer and frost bombs do the same.

Except you can't throw the hammer and the bombs quickly run out. Near the end I was freezing enemies somewhere around 50% of the time with each ice shot. The enemy stays frozen so long I can reset both spells and get 1-2 free swings with my melee characters.

Mages are the best form of spike dps against tough groups of enemies or being trapped in a narrow corridor.

Debatable I was seeing hits of up to 200 with my main melee guy by end game even when completely out of energy that is something a mage can not do.

I used the amulet to space out my characters levels. Whoever was leveling up got the hat and vitality cloak. If a mage was leveling up he got the + willpower weapons too. ROFL... what do you mean mages running out of energy? I had to start letting my fighters use throwing weapons to guarantee they would get a hit. Two big spells kills weaker enemies and an additional two melee hits kills tougher enemies. In places like level 10 where multiple enemies spawn I would kill 1 before the door opened all the way (I swapped out my fighter weapons and while the enemies ran over to me reset my spell runes). If you aim spells well they never miss and that is something you didn't experience. I know melee attacks can miss often even when you've got high accuracy.

If you don't have a mage you can't use the orb that grants a continual light source (which is extremely convenient).

Convenient ... sure needed no not really I had so many torches by mid game I stopped picking them up.

Yes it is convenient but I didn't have to do anything for light once I got the orb and that is exactly my point. Needing to use torches means someone doesn't get an offhand item. That translates to someone not getting a shield or someone not being able to use missile weapons OR having less throwing weapons (1 hand instead of 2). If you don't use the auto map and need the compass that is a really big deal.

That sometimes happens in our D&D games... no one wants to be the guy that carries the torch.

[Arodin]

Within the first fifteen minutes of playing the game with the default party, I concluded that the mage is a liability and started over with two fighters and two rogues.

Casting is slow because you have to click the runes every time, and they run out of energy too fast. I think to be in balance with the other classes, you should be able to assign a specific spell to the mage's hand so you can cast it with one click instead of having to pick the runes every time, and mages should inherently regen energy faster than other classes. If it means reducing their damage for balance, that would be OK. They're just too awkward and unreliable the way they are, IMO.

[Hissssa]

Just like almost every game that includes mages this game has the same level power curve.

Melee classes tend to increase in a linear fashion and are largely tied to gear to make real advances.

Mage classes tend to increase in an exponential or log function. This means they are very slow to start but have the strongest finish.

Somewhere around character level 3 my fighters became the liability. If I had to stop and wait it was for their health not my mages mana.

A melee rogue has the same liability until he is lvl 3 if human or level 4 if not because he needs the reach skill.

[Saice]

Just like almost every game that includes mages this game has the same level power curve.

Melee classes tend to increase in a linear fashion and are largely tied to gear to make real advances.

Mage classes tend to increase in an exponential or log function. This means they are very slow to start but have the strongest finish.

Somewhere around character level 3 my fighters became the liability. If I had to stop and wait it was for their health not my mages mana.

A melee rogue has the same liability until he is lvl 3 if human or level 4 if not because he needs the reach skill.

Im not disagreing that the Mage is a late game bloomer. I just did not feel the investment was worth it or that it was at all needed.

Personaly I love mages in most games. I just did not like it in here. Heck I did an all mage run in DM more then a few times just for kicks. But here the late bloomer really is to late for me as a power cruve and the spell sysetm while nice is just a tab to slow for my tastes. At lest in DM you could use to keyboard to input your runes.

And to be Honest im going mage build on my solo run just for kicks but it does not change my point of view that mages are to slow to become overly effective and to restricted in how that are implemnted in Grimrock. And no I not going to say that has to change it is fine just not my prefrance.

[Rozy]

I personally don't feel I'd of made it to where I am now in game without my fire mage. She's just useful to the extreme.

Though I guess I can sorta see the problem people have with the runes. It's not hard to input what runes you want to cast with some practice but it's a hard skill to learn. If the numpad could be used for putting runes instead of the mouse I think some players might get more use out of mages.