Grimrock

hapro wrote:

cryocore wrote:You both miss the point, and both fall in to the entitled arrogance I was talking about.
You assume your opinion about a perceived flaw is true. A subjective opinion is just that. Subjective. You are wanting changes based on your personal opinion. Granted you are perfectly entitled, but almost every argument for change come down to arrogantly stating the AH have made an error. Be it regarding the UI or the difficulty. All I am saying is that there were deliberate choices made by the team affecting a style of game they wanted to make. Your objection to it is of no consequence to anyone but yourself.

You are literally wrong. For instance, it is bad UI design to not allow players to remove a skill point from a skill before clicking some kind of "confirm" button. You might say, "oh, just don't click the wrong button," but it happens and now you're forever stuck with 1 point in a skill you never wanted with no way to get it back. Criticism can be objective.

So you're stating that there being a long term consequence for something you did (deliberate or accidental) is by definition a fault of the developers? I want you to carefully think about that.

I may not have been clear here.

My issues are specifically about people wanting change because they find the game too hard, either due to combat, magic, or puzzle difficulty, or some some other game play feature they struggle with.
I have never made a specific comment about a UI feature, or any technical issues. My issues are limited to people wanting the game changed to be made easier. Which imo is contrary to the design of the game. More importantly its the arrogance of some of these requests that annoy me. There is a huge difference between saying "I didnt like X you should/need to change it to Y" and "I found X to be an issue and I would have preferred Y". One is constructive (being the latter) the other is presumptuous and arrogant.

IMO anyone wanting the gameplay to be made easier was never the intended audience as its difficulty was one of the promoted features.

hapro wrote:For instance, it is bad UI design to not allow players to remove a skill point from a skill before clicking some kind of "confirm" button. <...> Criticism can be objective.

Your criticism is objective save for that highlighted word.
Objective criticism is "this game don't have feature X". Non-objective criticism includes sneaking the word "bad" into it somewhere.

I have reached a point that I can't play anymore. I encountered several spiders and I just can't play that fast with a mouse. I need keyboard controls otherwise I misclick everything because of my tremors, try playing with your hands shaking and clicking at random. You say we are arrogant, well screw you. They are arrogant for making a game without thinking about how their different customers' abilities affect gameplay.

hapro wrote:It is bad UI design to not allow players to remove a skill point from a skill before clicking some kind of "confirm" button. You might say, "oh, just don't click the wrong button," but it happens and now you're forever stuck with 1 point in a skill you never wanted with no way to get it back. Criticism can be objective.

Alright, that complaint I have no problem with, though I save before leveling up to be sure I get it right. That may well be considered a bug in need of fixing.

In general, I agree. There have been a few times when I was angry about the dexterity, or the movement buffer, or what not on some of the fast paced puzzles. But then I realized that if I lowered the graphics quality so my wimpy graphics card could keep up they actually weren't hard at all and I was just going about it like a moron demanding high graphics on an old laptop. Having changed that, all of those puzzles are fine.

And frankly, in a system like this there are a limited number of ways to make puzzles. The devs know that we want to have as much variety in the puzzles as possible, and they've tried to provide that variety. While it may be a pain for some people to solve certain kinds of puzzles, most of us love the variety of puzzles present and wouldn't sacrifice one kind of puzzle just to enjoy the game more ourselves because that would mean the kinds of puzzles other dislike are also removed, reducing the game the a hollow shell with all too many of only a few kinds of puzzles.

This game is a work of art and I praise the devs for sharing it with us. If there's anyone who doesn't like it, then make your own game to your style of play. They've given Grimrock to us, and while we can provide constructive advice (some of us, not me), it is rude not to recognize the great effort that was made to give us something incredible, and at a far lower price than most games of its quality. AH, you rock!

cryocore wrote:

Dandy wrote:I demand that Almost Human, rename cryocore to crymore.

Seeing as I have no serious issues with the game. I am not being emotional, or dismissive but am actually trying to have an adult and constructive debate about gamer entitlement I would suggest you think a bit harder before posting something as asinine as you just did. I am not insulting or trying to demean anyone so why are attempting to do that to me?

Actual issues aside, (and I actually happen to agree with the main point I think you're trying to make) your tone is by far the most arrogant of any posters in this thread. (Yes, I'm familiar with the dictionary definition.) And tone, is what folks will most readily react to.

See, some of these last posts are a great illustration of the whole issue. People will come and complain that your game does not conform to their tastes, needs, abilities, that their favorite pet dog can't play it, that it can't help them in their sex life, that it doesn't answer The Question to Life, the Universe and Everything, and so on. Usually they'll be extensively using the word "bad" or many of its harsher synonyms, and that's why none of this is objective in any way.

The_ShadoW wrote:See, some of these last posts are a great illustration of the whole issue. People will come and complain that your game does not conform to their tastes, needs, abilities, that their favorite pet dog can't play it, that it can't help them in their sex life, that it doesn't answer The Question to Life, the Universe and Everything, and so on. Usually they'll be extensively using the word "bad" or many of its harsher synonyms, and that's why none of this is objective in any way.

You can easily say that some people will come and praise it, say that it conforms to their taste, need and abilities. Their pet dog loves it too, their sex life is now amazing, the game screams 42 and that any attempt to change it will ruin these things.

It's all subjective. People just need to stop being so cross that others have an opinion that differs from theirs.

Drax wrote:You can easily say that some people will come and praise it, say that it conforms to their taste, need and abilities. Their pet dog loves it too, their sex life is now amazing, the game screams 42 and that any attempt to change it will ruin these things.

And indeed we can. However, I was commenting to the claim of "objective criticism". Usually, people who use such words are on the far opposite end from being objective.

On the other hand, I never heard of someone proclaiming he's "objectively praising" the game.

The_ShadoW wrote:

Drax wrote:You can easily say that some people will come and praise it, say that it conforms to their taste, need and abilities. Their pet dog loves it too, their sex life is now amazing, the game screams 42 and that any attempt to change it will ruin these things.

And indeed it is. However, I was commenting to the claim of "objective criticism". Usually, people who use such words are on the far opposite end from being objective.

On the other hand, I never heard of someone proclaiming he's "objectively praising" the game.

The OP wasn't proclaiming that, but that's what he was doing.

The_ShadoW wrote:

hapro wrote:For instance, it is bad UI design to not allow players to remove a skill point from a skill before clicking some kind of "confirm" button. <...> Criticism can be objective.

Your criticism is objective save for that highlighted word.
Objective criticism is "this game don't have feature X". Non-objective criticism includes sneaking the word "bad" into it somewhere.

Things can also be objectively good or bad. Like, if I'm hovering over a skill to see what it does and I accidentally lay my finger too heavily on the mouse and click the button by accident. Or if I go to click on a skill but my mouse freaks out and jumps 20 pixels and the wrong skill is selected. You cannot argue that, in these cases, forcing the player to be permanently stuck with this accidental decision is a good thing. It is objectively bad design in comparison to the alternative solution which would not force players to be forever stuck with that misclick.