Grimrock

Azel wrote:Well of course you think that Invisibility and ForceField count as Utility, mister. What don't you think counts as everything proper in Grimrock?

Realtime free movement in dungeon crawlers ~in general. (I know of some that have that as an option, but I do consider it a mistake.)

But I know you don't really care for strategies and implementations outside of Grid-based dungeon crawling.

[/quote]Yet that the genre; that's what dungeon crawlers are. They are basically [and foremost] puzzle games with incidental combat ~for the most part. The grid based nature of the games is an imperative aspect that factors into solving the puzzles. It's a constant of how the game-world works, that serves to limit the possible solutions to a more manageable subset. This is why secret buttons are plain to see if you look; as opposed to diabolically hidden in the patterns of the wall. You are supposed to see it if you look at it. This is why deducing secret rooms works; you investigate the map well enough to see where a secret room can be; or where its entrance can be ~and that's where you look. It's why distance is measured in steps; and how the player can notice a pit that does not have a shaft on the floor below. It's why traps and pits are center tile, and cannot be tip-toed around; it defines what's possible, and excludes the impossible (solution).

Your description of secret walls/buttons only applies to Grimrock, not all Dungeon Crawlers; least of all the older games that gave birth to this genre. In other Dungeon Crawlers, players had to manually search every single wall, often with zero visual aids or hints as to the existence of a hidden wall/button.

I get your points, but I also get that you pretty much describe Grimrock-specific mechanics in a way that attempts to trump any other mechanics or innovations; often with a blatant disregard of the mass success of those innovations.

Azel wrote:Your description of secret walls/buttons only applies to Grimrock, not all Dungeon Crawlers; least of all the older games that gave birth to this genre.

Not in my experience. I've played many dungeon crawlers;(though not all ~of course). What I said before does seem to me to hold true with them. In 'Eye of the Beholder' there is one instance that I know of, of a super-secret button. It appears only once [afaik], and it's terribly random, and it's not in the clue-book. It disables the mantis trap on level 10; but other than that, there isn't anything else like it until level 12 (the smallest buttons).
The developers of EoB, did not think that many would ever complete it. This is one of the reason EoB for PC did not have the end cinematic viewable in the Amiga version... space savings.


In 'Lands of Lore', the buttons actually made larger and more obvious. The same in Stone-Prophet and Stonekeep; [*Stonekeep surprise fatal encounters though ]. Menzoberranzan had arbitrary hidden buttons, but that game was such a bad dungeon crawler, aside from art design, that doesn't surprise in the least.

The Menzo engine supports real time movement and grid-step; but the developers were so lax, that it passed Q/A that the game cannot be completed in grid-step mode, for careless hallway obstructions that must be tip-toed around. Stone Prophet uses the same engine afaik.

Stonekeep I loved, and played religiously.

Shadow of Yserbius is one of those "search every damn wall hoping for the best" type games.

Kudos for the memory lane screenshots though, mister

minmay wrote:In Isle of Nex there are only 3 places where you are put into a position where you can't easily avoid damage without using consumables: the cemetery pit with the skull (iirc, might be the one with the treasure note), the ancient claymore room, and the arquebus room. All 3 are optional, invisibility mostly nullifies the ancient claymore room, and the arquebus room only has the weakest monster in the game.

I must have lost the party [died] four times in that pit ~on Ironman/single-save mode, (from the beginning ~outside the cemetery). I managed their survival by forcefield-crowd control; (that and killing off as many of them as I could from the elevation above, first; with missile weapons).

I do like the rogues; I haven't tried the farmer yet.

Azel wrote:Stonekeep I loved, and played religiously.
...
Kudos for the memory lane screenshots though, mister

Isaac wrote:

minmay wrote:In Isle of Nex there are only 3 places where you are put into a position where you can't easily avoid damage without using consumables: the cemetery pit with the skull (iirc, might be the one with the treasure note), the ancient claymore room, and the arquebus room. All 3 are optional, invisibility mostly nullifies the ancient claymore room, and the arquebus room only has the weakest monster in the game.

I must have lost the party [died] four times in that pit ~on Ironman/single-save mode, (from the beginning ~outside the cemetery). I managed their survival by forcefield-crowd control; (that and killing off as many of them as I could from the elevation above, first; with missile weapons).

Wrong pit, I'm talking about the 2-square pit in the cemetery (not the crypt) where you walk onto the square with the skull and an undead spawns on the other square, blocking the ladder out.

I play all 4 human.

1 front row fighter, 1 front rogue and 2 mages on the back. 1 mage spec'd in fire and air the other in earth and water.

For me, its my favo team.

Thanks all for the useful posts in this and other threads, maybe I will get a party beyond Pyramid one day before I restart as I'm not happy with something.