Grimrock

Hi,

regarding your traffic example: Put a roundabout there, and everybody is happy! =)

Let's state:
Fighting in open spaces one or two enemies is easy because of the kiting mechnaic.
Fighting the same enemies where you can't kite is hard.

Of course, that is part of the thrill of the game, at least when you are trapped. But i think it is also the big difference between those two situations, which can be frustratig. I like the game very much in the way it is now.... but i hated it from time to time when is was killed by two enemies (i.e. spiders) when i was unable to strafe around.

Elderian

oodyboo wrote:

Isaac wrote:

HoustonDragon wrote:You don't HAVE to strafe in the game to win.

But why wouldn't you want to?
(Yes this is a serious question )

It appears that some people would prefer combat to be determined by character skill rather than player skill, hence this thread...

Character's can't jump to the side? Party Movement isn't dictated by the characters? (You slow down when they are overburdened, and can't move when they have too much weight). Character skill is accuracy, damage, and active defense when hit; and spell craft. The game only allows you to suggest the characters move when you push a movement key, and then they move to the best of their ability (and as a group).

Isaac wrote:

oodyboo wrote: It appears that some people would prefer combat to be determined by character skill rather than player skill, hence this thread...

Character's can't jump to the side? Party Movement isn't dictated by the characters? (You slow down when they are overburdened, and can't move when they have too much weight). Character skill is accuracy, damage, and active defense when hit; and spell craft. The game only allows you to suggest the characters move when you push a movement key, and then they move to the best of their ability (and as a group).

Sure characters can dodge by themselves (as in evasion stat), but that will not keep them alive forever, and it does diddly squat on magic attacks. Avoiding to get attacked in the first place still depends on player skill. You have to initiate the kiting, or close doors, or lure enemies over pitfalls, etc. Or attack for that matter. Attacking efficiently requires some player skill as well; activating runes on the fly, switching rows on characters on low health...

BlueLegion wrote:

Isaac wrote:

oodyboo wrote: It appears that some people would prefer combat to be determined by character skill rather than player skill, hence this thread...

Character's can't jump to the side? Party Movement isn't dictated by the characters? (You slow down when they are overburdened, and can't move when they have too much weight). Character skill is accuracy, damage, and active defense when hit; and spell craft. The game only allows you to suggest the characters move when you push a movement key, and then they move to the best of their ability (and as a group).

Sure characters can dodge by themselves (as in evasion stat), but that will not keep them alive forever, and it does diddly squat on magic attacks. Avoiding to get attacked in the first place still depends on player skill. You have to initiate the kiting, or close doors, or lure enemies over pitfalls, etc. Or attack for that matter. Attacking efficiently requires some player skill as well; activating runes on the fly, switching rows on characters on low health...

These games were never point and click; with active movement control being an intrinsic part of the gameplay, it's just not an option like it is in something like Fallout or Baldur's Gate; where the PC's ability does effect whether they get hit. In Grimrock, the PC's ability effects whether they get hit when the tile is attacked, not whether they are on the tile when it gets attacked.

I don't want an action game. I want a role-playing game...and to me that means playing characters that can do things I cannot. Furthermore, the characters should not be limited by my own limitations. Thus the words ROLE-PLAYING.

I'm for tactical turn-based combat.

wolfkampf wrote:I don't want an action game. I want a role-playing game...and to me that means playing characters that can do things I cannot. Furthermore, the characters should not be limited by my own limitations. Thus the words ROLE-PLAYING.

I'm for tactical turn-based combat.

So am I ... but not in this style of game.

*I would say, for role playing games, it could be the reverse; characters that cannot do what the player can; (like picking a lock).

Isaac wrote:

wolfkampf wrote:I don't want an action game. I want a role-playing game...and to me that means playing characters that can do things I cannot. Furthermore, the characters should not be limited by my own limitations. Thus the words ROLE-PLAYING.

I'm for tactical turn-based combat.

So am I ... but not in this style of game.

*I would say, for role playing games, it could be the reverse; characters that cannot do what the player can; (like picking a lock).

Well it looks like you both picked the wrong game to play then? How about finding a game that fits to you better instead of trying to mold this game into something else?

Spathi wrote:Again another page of straw man arguments. This suggestion of

Removing the kiting

only comes from those needing to ignore what has been suggested to create an argument against an imaginary position that nobody holds.

This thread does something like this over and over...
The timing on these traffic lights is slightly wrong they should tune the way they operate to allow the other road to flow better.
OMG! I can get to work and the other cars move sometimes, and you want to remove the traffic lights and have chaos.

No it is actually what follows from the suggested changes. Having monsters sweep the squares in front, attack fast and/or snare you, will effectively remove the kiting mechanic. Of course you can only have a few monsters do it, but as I have already pointed out, that is effectively the same as dropping you in a confined space with several enemies and the game already does that.

Also imagine what combat would be like against enemies that snare you? Can you honestly claim that this would improve the gameplay without making further changes?

Spathi wrote:Again another page of straw man arguments. This suggestion of

Removing the kiting

only comes from those needing to ignore what has been suggested to create an argument against an imaginary position that nobody holds.

The timing on these traffic lights is slightly wrong they should tune the way they operate to allow the other road to flow better.
OMG! I can get to work and the other cars move sometimes, and you want to remove the traffic lights and have chaos.

That's an excellent example of a straw man argument - arguing against a poor analogy instead of the arguments themselves.

Now let's look at the suggestions made here:

1varangian wrote:Suggestions: [edited to sound less extreme]

- Add rules of engagement. If you strafe away from a monster or turn your back to it, it has a chance of getting a free attack at you...

- Add a short delay or build-up to attacks so you have to stay in the square longer when attacking....

- Prevent moving completely under certain circumstances...

- Give some large monsters the ability to sweep attack across all 3 squares in front of them.

- Have some monsters attack so fast you have no time to strafe

- Make charging monsters a bit smarter

Notice the part in red too, it is rather telling.

With the exception of the last suggestion, the logical conclusion is to make strafing ineffective. So these suggestions don't "Remove strafing" from the game entirely, they just make it a pointless tactic. Now I'll quote parts of my overly verbose and largely ignored post from page 10:

oodyboo wrote:Removing manual dodge (making it ineffective is functionally equivalent) will just make character trees all important and then these forums would be even more full of complaints about skill X being better than skill Y...

The justification for these suggestions seems to be that 2x2 strafing is "too easy," or "boring," or "routine." so I will address that next.

oodyboo wrote:If you find 2x2 strafing is boring, you can minimize your use of it. Try figure 8's, or random patterns, or try building a party that can stand toe-to-toe with monsters. To be honest I didn't use 2x2 strafing until the blue-ish colored creatures on level 9 that destroy my athletic/armor focused fighter. And I'll agree strafing is easy once you have the timing down, but it would be a lot worse without it. And primarily it's too easy because all the non-spell attacks are simple instant clicks so only mages take any player focus with the potential of interrupting the player's strafing rhythm. Strafing gets much tougher when you have something else to focus on, and that's why I would personally try to make the attack system more engaging.

To expand: Have you played a group of 4 mages? Is strafing and casting 4 different spells too routine and boring? What about a solo Toorum run? How will those options be viable with the suggestions made in this thread? If anything these changes would restrict much of the character build variety - party's will all end up very "routine" and "boring" because many of the current options won't be viable.

I would much rather the attack controls be made more interesting and complex and less routine (e.g. gestures, hold times, sweet spots, etc) rather than making strafing useless. It seems that many (not all) of the same vocal minority who want strafing ineffective also want spell casting easier and automatic super quivers to make the attack controls even easier and less interesting, and that just baffles me.

It amazes me how people can waltz in and "suggest" changes to the most focal game mechanics of a product that's been in planning and intense development for a long time.

What's even more hilarious is that half these forums are complaining about timed puzzles and troublesome movement, the other half is complaining that strafing (which at Hard diff requires as much speed and precision as timed puzzles) is too easy.