Grimrock

gambit37 wrote:@Issac: The thread is entitled Dungeon Editor Progress. It's not entitled "Mod Tools progress". They aren't necessarily the same thing

A functional dungeon editor, with a point-and-click interface is essential for this type of game. It's the minimum tool required. I would have thought that getting a usable dungeon editor is the first step; beyond that, advanced modding capabilities are really a different discussion.

The base tool needs to be able to block out a map and place doors, pits, plates, torches, switches (linked or not), and inscriptions.

What, and that's it? That wouldn't be much of an editor. Any reasonably decent dungeon editing tool should offer the ability to build all the dungeon puzzle mechanics. Anything less is just pointless.

gambit37 wrote:What, and that's it? That wouldn't be much of an editor. Any reasonably decent dungeon editing tool should offer the ability to build all the dungeon puzzle mechanics. Anything less is just pointless.

Slow down... you were the one just mentioned, "It's the minimum tool required" and "advanced modding capabilities are really a different discussion".

I was describing the base tool ~the bare minimum. A functional (though empty) dungeon requires the basic ability to layout the rooms, doors, and hallways, and maybe a staircase. Honestly (though I expect that they plan much more) I would be content with a Exel spreadsheet template; where you fill in the field codes by hand and use a provided commandline compiler that takes the saved output from Exel and generates the required files from it. These levels are not that complicated; that you would need a tool like the TES construction set ~and it's four guys doing this (for free?) as a bonus.

So for me... anything beyond what I just described is fantastic and super appreciated, (whatever the limitations or coding requirements); a free tool that greatly simplifies the creation of custom user levels, and 'after patch' official support for them built into the game.

**** Here is an odd thought: The editor is free and noncommercial...What would it take to setup an editing environment in Blender? Imagine distributing a Blend file AS an LOG editor. Blender saves the UI that you arrange and allows you to generate UI via scripts; it has a built in game engine and logic editor, and has the ability to run Python scripts, and save files... so (provided the API exposes all that you need), I bet it would not be impossible to set it up and write an exporter in Python.


(But we know they are planning to build the editor into the game.)

What, how did I miss this? The editor is going to run in-game?
Suddenly, I am in Sauerbraten

gambit37 wrote:It has been implied that to make even the simplest door work, we'd need to write a function.
I think that's crazy. The visual interface should allow you to link a pressure plate to a door using a simple point and click interface. If the final result of that is some auto-generated Lua code, that's fine, just don't expose it to me. It's not necessary.

You seem to imply that this "point and click" stuff is not programming but it really is (it does not matter if the logic of a puzzle is textual or visual, the same rules of programming still apply). Sorry but I'm not a big fan of visual programming. Yes, wiring a single pressure plate to a door is slightly easier with a gui, though even this could be argued if the plate-door thing is part of a bigger puzzle, but anything more complex involving variables and branching can get really hairy. In any case we don't want to end up with something like this

Once again, petri, I think we don't communicate our message well enough. Of course, nobody expects a visual editor that can handle all puzzles, as that is probably a terrible lot of work and may end up unusable.
The thing is, a puzzle or a complex level mechanic may need this, but opening a regular pullchain/switch door shouldn't really need this.

The problem is that with LoG, you don't just have just one door with one switch all the time. If that was happening all the time, then yes, a GUI would be nice.

The whole idea behind LoG is complex puzzles. Anything as much as the first stepping plate you run into in game is already open to a nightmare of options.

You couldn't just link the pressure plate to the door, since that could mean a plethora of results:

- The first time someone steps on the plate, the door opens.
- Each time someone steps on the plate, the door toggles between opening and closing.
- The first time someone steps off the plate, the door closes.
- Each time someone steps off the plate, the door toggles between opening and closing.
- Each time someone steps on or off the plate, the door toggles between opening and closing.
- Each time someone steps on the plate, the door opens. Each time someone steps off the plate, the door closes.
- Each time someone steps on the plate, the door closes. Each time someone steps on the plate, the door opens.

And then perhaps it starts working different when items are involved. Or maybe the door closes after a couple of seconds. And that's just a single door with a single pressure plate.

Long story short: If you want to do anything more than have doors with chains next to them that open the doors, you would already require more than just a simple GUI interface, without the GUI options becoming insane. And LoG is all about puzzles, so it makes sense the editor is released with the idea in mind to make complex puzzles.

Sorry if it has been already asked, will the editor be a standalone package to install in the game dir or distribuited like the 1.1.4 patch (new full pack to download)?

I'd like also to express my gratitude for all your efforts. You really know how to please your customers.

Thels wrote:
You couldn't just link the pressure plate to the door, since that could mean a plethora of results:
- The first time someone steps on the plate, the door opens.
- Each time someone steps on the plate, the door toggles between opening and closing.
- The first time someone steps off the plate, the door closes.
- Each time someone steps off the plate, the door toggles between opening and closing.
- Each time someone steps on or off the plate, the door toggles between opening and closing.
- Each time someone steps on the plate, the door opens. Each time someone steps off the plate, the door closes.
- Each time someone steps on the plate, the door closes. Each time someone steps on the plate, the door opens.

Window one, window two.

Again, I have nothing against the massive functionality full Lua scripting offers. I'm just saying a lot of it can be fit into a visual interface.

Curunir wrote:Again, I have nothing against the massive functionality full Lua scripting offers. I'm just saying a lot of it can be fit into a visual interface.

A solution maybe a second layer (Lua code generator with a visual interface). This tool can help. Another solution maybe pre-made specific functions to simplify code.