Grimrock

BlueLegion wrote:
The only reason why this thread is growing is that shortsighted, displeased people are the most vocal.

Why are people demanding to fix stuff that
1: isn't broken
2: works as intended and
3: most people enjoy as it is?

Because they only consider their own perspective and do not even bother considering the possibility that another exists.

Aren't you guilty of exactly that?

People are voicing their concerns and making constructive suggestions because there is stuff that
1: can be improved upon
2: might work as intended but isn't perfected yet
3: most people just don't care about even if it's not quite there yet

The only shortsighted view on LoG combat is that it can't be improved.

Isaac wrote:Question: Do any here advocate standing one's ground when an ogre charges the party?

Nobody has, read the thread. The arguers only mis-represent the suggestions to throw off the thread with straw man arguments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

The suggestions are related to allowing the monster to have any chance when next to you.

There have been three or more suggested ways to do this and you can still move.
-Slow down movement when next to a monster and weaken monster.
-Pause before attack is made and weaken the first blow if you are in a new square else you get clobbered normally.
-If you run around a monster there could be a % chance he swipes you.
- probably more and combos of above

Have nothing to do with "stopping strafing" or running or hiding, more ideas in thread if you read it.

and they are suggestions, obvously they would have to leave a tickbox for "gay mode" if the devs want to do it and people really are upset.

Spathi wrote:

Isaac wrote:Question: Do any here advocate standing one's ground when an ogre charges the party?

Nobody has, read the thread. The arguers only mis-represent the suggestions to throw off the thread with straw man arguments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

It was asked as an aside of course; I wanted to get a clear impression of the viewpoints.

Megami wrote:Encephalon: I am talking about 2x2, not killing a charging ogre. Also 2x2 exploit != strafing. Care to quote me where I wanted to remove strafing completely?

*sigh* 2x2 dancing. is. NOT. an. exploit. I'm starting to wish one of the developers could answer after all, to tell exactly that: It's not an exploit, it's as intended. Pray tell, how else should you stand a chance against a warden? Heck, even the first Skeleton Warrior would very likely kill you if you just stood still hacking at it. And "Enter Thy Grave" is guaranteed to kill you if you don not use the 2x2 (or 3x3 og 2x3 or whatever x you want) "exploit".
And I did not say you wanted to remove strafing completely. In the context I intended it it was for the use in combat (the 2x2 "exploit"). The fault of mine was for not wording myself to make that obviously clear to you.

And as for the defence trees; even with combat strafing you still need them. If I get hit from the sides or the rear my mage is most often the first to die. Why? Because he has the least amount of defences. And even with full plate or valor, as well as full defensisive skills I don't think I would last long while holding my ground against a warden.

An exploit would be if there was found some way to, say, duplicate any item you found and end up with four rogues all dressed in Lurker armor, wielding Assassin's Dagger and having 50 skill in Assassination, Daggers and Dodge.

1varangian wrote:The only shortsighted view on LoG combat is that it can't be improved.

No, it's that it needs to be be improved.

The combat CAN be improved, but CANNOT be perfected. Perfection is an illusion, it does not exist. And pleasing every single player is impossible. Major changes to the combat system is going to piss of more players than it will please.

Megami wrote:BlueLegion: can you show me some statistics if you are so bold to claim that majority of players enjoy mindless killing of a defensless mob?

If the combat was as broken as some claim, this game wouldn't be one of Steam's top-selling games. As a little marketed indie game it has to compete with heavily marketed AAA games and it succeeds in doing so. Also, turn your gaze into some other active threads, there are quite a few with lots of replies that say that the game is JUST RIGHT the way it is. The only reason this thread gets this many pages is pure stubbornness on both parties (yes, including me).

I am being stubborn because a lot of arguments brought are just plain FALSE. Including your argument that mobs are "defenseless". They are not. Even if you are able to lock them down on 2x2 combat (which cannot be done on most mobs), there are mobs that outrun you, outstrafe you, attack sideways, attack to all sides, etc.

Encephalon wrote: *sigh* 2x2 dancing. is. NOT. an. exploit. I'm starting to wish one of the developers could answer after all, to tell exactly that: It's not an exploit, it's as intended. Pray tell, how else should you stand a chance against a warden? Heck, even the first Skeleton Warrior would very likely kill you if you just stood still hacking at it. And "Enter Thy Grave" is guaranteed to kill you if you don not use the 2x2 (or 3x3 og 2x3 or whatever x you want) "exploit"

After the strafe has been adjusted monsters can be tweaked and rebalanced. And they should.

How are Wardens a challenge now? Toughest monster in the game, yet they never get to even try to attack you when you effortlessly 2x2 them or exploit the brainless charge. Talk about pulling the teeth from your most scary enemy. They would be much more exciting to fight if they could actually fight back.

It's clear the strafing was intended as is, because the monsters have been given crazy HP and attack power to compensate. But that's not necessarily the best approach to exciting combat. The 2x2 is way too easy to pull off and monsters are absolutely no threat unless they come in large numbers. That's where the current system fails.

1varangian wrote:-snip-
That's where the current system fails.

This is an opinion, not a fact. Please stop confusing the two.

BlueLegion wrote:

1varangian wrote:-snip-
That's where the current system fails.

This is an opinion, not a fact. Please stop confusing the two.

Not confused, just hoping I don't come across as an argumentative douchebag on the forums.

1varangian wrote:After the strafe has been adjusted monsters can be tweaked and rebalanced. And they should.

That would probably take more time and effort than it's worth. imo. At least for LoG which is already released.

1varangian wrote:How are Wardens a challenge now? Toughest monster in the game, yet they never get to even try to attack you when you effortlessly 2x2 them or exploit the brainless charge. Talk about pulling the teeth from your most scary enemy. They would be much more exciting to fight if they could actually fight back.

It's clear the strafing was intended as is, because the monsters have been given crazy HP and attack power to compensate. But that's not necessarily the best approach to exciting combat. The 2x2 is way too easy to pull off and monsters are absolutely no threat unless they come in large numbers. That's where the current system fails.

They can fight back, and if you don't pay attention and miss a move in time you'll get punished. And I don't see how a stationary face-to-face standstill trade of blows would be more exiting than the 2x2 dance. As it currently works you have to pay attention (to other monsters and pit traps) and be active as a player. If your opinions of exiting is dependent on who's got the bigger stone (you or your enemy) the game would just be a series of bash the monster, rest, bash the next monster, rest, e.t.c. Then you would only stand a chance as long as you picked the correct skills to improve, keeping you just that bit stronger than the next monster.

Yes, many of the monsters in Mount Grimrock are alone immensely more powerfull than the party of prisoners combined. But that's part of the exitement, what brings the fear of what might be lurking around the next corner, as well as the fear of being surrounded by several enemies with no way of escape. If you could comfortably go face to face with any monster you wouldn't be frightened by the sound of a sudden roar from the dark ahead in the narrow corridor, nor would you have to mind the pit traps scattered around while engaging a warden.

And the possibility of being the underdog and still be able to defeat some immensely powerfull monster, using both skills and wits, is a good part of what being an adventurer is all about.

1varangian wrote:

BlueLegion wrote:

1varangian wrote:-snip-
That's where the current system fails.

This is an opinion, not a fact. Please stop confusing the two.

Not confused, just hoping I don't come across as an argumentative douchebag on the forums.

No, but you are coming across as an immature troll, which your apparent need start insulting seems to prove. Also kudos for implying that discussions without arguments go anywhere. Now where did I put the slow clap processor?