Grimrock

gambit37 wrote:

Isaac wrote:They can't write Kismet... (can they?)

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying?

Kismet is the visual scripting tool for the UDK engine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSMPgwaBBhU#t=01h09m55s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSMPgwaBBhU

gambit37 wrote:When I said a Dungeon Editor needs to be accessible and easy to use, I meant just that: the Dungeon Editor. I'm not talking about all the modding abilities that come through writing custom code.

If you want hobbyist designers to be able to create dungeons (not mods), you need a visual Dungeon Editor that is capable of constructing all the game's basic mechanics: the map layout, doors, switches, alcoves, monsters, pads, torches, items, etc. I linked to DSB earlier, this works exactly the same way. The editor has a GUI for building all the basics, and you don't need to write any code. But if you want to add new assets or do some custom puzzles or whatever, that's when you need to write code. It is the best of both worlds for all levels of designer/coder, and hundreds of other games have editors that work the same way.

You can't expect hobbyist designers to root around in code to build a basic dungeon. It would frankly be nuts to code a dungeon by hand. Yes, I appreciate the LoG team did that, but they didn't have the time or resources to build an editor, so it was the most cost effective solution for them at the time. That doesn't mean it should be the approach for a future editing tool though. Even if the editor pumps out a bit of Lua for activating a door or whatever, this is much better than making the user have to write that code.

Without a visual editor, it will limit who can make dungeons, and therefore it will make the modding scene for LoG so exclusive as to be unattractive to most hobbyists.

Generally speaking, designers have a visual mindset and work best with visual tools, they aren't so good at coding. It's the whole left brain/right brain thing. Programmers who say programming is easy for anyone simply don't appreciate that different people think in different ways: what's easy for some, is devilishly hard for others.

If you force designers to have to code, you are massively restricting their creative output. And that's the death knell for your modding community.

This is the truth. Without accessibility (GUI), the modding community will be completely restricted. Doesn't matter if writing a bit of LUA is the easiest thing in the world. People are not going to want to write the code to create basic dungeons.

jmpayne wrote:People are not going to want to write the code to create basic dungeons.

I don't WANT to, but I WILL if that's the only option, and it wouldn't be that hard.

Not sure why this is a debate, I'm pretty sure it was already confirmed that they're developing a visual interface for the layout and scripting for events. Why are people whining at each other?

Because opening a door with the pullchain next to it is hardly an "event". We're just not sure how much of the most basic functionality will be in the GUI, in the form of dropdown menus and checkboxes.

regomar wrote:Not sure why this is a debate, I'm pretty sure it was already confirmed that they're developing a visual interface for the layout and scripting for events. Why are people whining at each other?

It has been implied that to make even the simplest door work, we'd need to write a function.

I think that's crazy. The visual interface should allow you to link a pressure plate to a door using a simple point and click interface. If the final result of that is some auto-generated Lua code, that's fine, just don't expose it to me. It's not necessary.

Everyone should check out the editors that come with RTC and DSB, you'll see exactly what I mean.

I hope that all puzzle design are inbuilt into the editor - I personally have no programming ability. It will put a lot of users off if they are faced with learning LUA just to use the editor. I might add that I had not heard of LUA until a version of FTL's 'Dungeon Master' was created in this language. I would also add to Gambit37 to check out Dungeon Master Java which has a fully implemented dungeon creator - no programming necessary. Also the Elder Scrolls games 'Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim' again no programming required.
I also hope that different wall sets will be available to use on different levels as well as creation of new creatures. As well as outdoor locations to get to new dungeons. I personally would like to see shops and/or villages where new equipment and weapons as well as spells and potions can be obtained. Then treasure or gold could also be added. Treasure is present now but is worthless.
Modding should be easy. When the Mods start to appear the Devs will learn quite a lot just as the Elder Scrolls team have done.

It would not be good if 'Dungeon Master Java' has more ease of use and easier creation of creatures and general design than your editor.

Questions:
Is there any reason for not implementing a rope and grapple or rope ladder so that characters do not have to fall down pits ?
Is there any reason why sword attacks are limited to a single movement and do not have multiple swings ? (afterall if you were using a sword in real life you would keep swinging until your arm fell off)
Spiders - when they jump up why can we not stab them in their belly ? (you would in real life (if Giant Spiders existed that is))
Additions:
A proper quiver - so that all arrows are in one place.
A spell book - similar to that in Image Works 'Bloodwych' so that new spells are added into the book. Scrolls can be discarded when this happens. The pages would show the runes required for the spell.
This could be tabbed to show the different Magic types. Each mage would have to learn each spell.
Addition of traits throughout the game instead of being limited to just two.
More control over the allocation of points - so that we can expand individual abilities instead of just the main ones. Thus Stength, Dexterity, Vitality and Will Power can also be up rated. No limit to points. No limit to levels. (Each new dungeon will be harder than the last).

btw. it's "Lua" (not LUA) Lua is a portuguese word for moon.

What is the difference between "Lua" and "LUA"? The capital letters? , all uppercase letters don't change the meaning of the word.

What is the difference between "LEGEND OF GRIMROCK" and "Legend of Grimrock"? I know the names must be written with Capital letter , but all capital letters are like a title. But the word "legend" is not a name.
For me LUA is not wrong and don't change the meaning.

Picky

I was enthasizing the programming language. DUH !!

Also other contributors to this thread have used the capital letters and you have not commented on this ??

By mentioning the word 'moon' are you stating that we should not use LUA but should use MOON ??

hannamarin wrote:I hope that all puzzle design are inbuilt into the editor - I personally have no programming ability. It will put a lot of users off if they are faced with learning LUA just to use the editor.

This is almost ~but not quite like being put off to painting for lack of color theory being built in. We are discussing editing the internal game data, not a mapping game. The task requires more than point & click (even if they do automate a lot of it).

...Also the Elder Scrolls games 'Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim' again no programming required.

Those editors allow point & click placement and a standard form based interface to objects, but to do anything significant in them, you still must use scripting.

@Issac: The thread is entitled Dungeon Editor Progress. It's not entitled "Mod Tools progress". They aren't necessarily the same thing

A functional dungeon editor, with a point-and-click interface is essential for this type of game. It's the minimum tool required. I would have thought that getting a usable dungeon editor is the first step; beyond that, advanced modding capabilities are really a different discussion.