2x2 strafing undermines character building [edited]

[Jack Dandy]

That option exists in the game as well, Goffmog- you can disable damage numbers and item properties from the options menu.

I agree that combat \ character building should get some more attention, in any case.

[Chiller]

I GOT IT!

...basically, what you people want is for mobs to have a way to take more shots at the player, so that defensive stats will come into play.

No problem!

Whenever you enter a fight, just stand still for a few seconds and let the mob attack the party a few times. Then proceed as usual. It's that easy!

...you can thank me later.

[t0tem]

Like it or not, we won't see any changes. The tactic is integrated in the game format, to change it would require redoing much of the game. Doesn't bother me tbh.

[Stamm]

I GOT IT!

...basically, what you people want is for mobs to have a way to take more shots at the player, so that defensive stats will come into play.

No problem!

Whenever you enter a fight, just stand still for a few seconds and let the mob attack the party a few times. Then proceed as usual. It's that easy!

...you can thank me later.

But seriously, with modding there probably will be more challenges, crowds of nasties and/or claustrophobic places and evil traps that make even extreme ninjas happy. Perhaps in vanilla games there should be extra options for making the game still harder (or easier).

In the end hard/easy is a topic that you cannot expect all players ever agree on.

[Kwibus]

2x2 dancing basicly makes any thought-out character building - pointless. You can just go with random party, random stats and random skills and win easily due to 2x2 dancing.

Which is precisely how the game is designed. I'm fed up with cRPGs being 90% character building and statistical management. Save that for Football Manager, less is definitely more in a Dungeon Master style game. My one and only gripe about Grimrock is that there are too many visible stats and skills. I would really love to see someone do a game in this style that hides EVERY number and allows you to feel your way through your character as they grow & learn by doing things - with feedback on progress and prowess delivered in other ways than by numbers flying up in mid air or appearing when you mouse over things. We've had the enormous potential of computers for decades now in our roleplaying, to immerse us completely in the gameworld, and yet we still want to see character sheets, and the results of dice rolls everywhere! One of the best things about Dungeon Master that I truly miss is that you learned to be better with specific weapons by using them, and you truly didn't know which weapons or armour were better than others unless you tried them out. Where has this mechanic gone from my roleplaying?

I'd definately love this. This mechanism DM used sometimes got me frustated as I had no idea what was good, very good or maybe even worse.
Also you didn't know your progress in XP and when you gained an lvl the game decided what stats improved and not the player.

Imo it would be great if LoG added the oldschool hardcore mode. Map yourself and what I mentioned above, would be really nice.

Coming back to the 2x2 discussion. I definately want to stick to the current fighting system as it's a lot more interesting then just standing infront of an enemy and launching your attacks. It's the real time fight and interaction with the dungeon that makes the fight interesting.
The problem in LoG imo is that the fights and mobs are too easy. Ofcourse this is my personal opinion as I'm sure some people struggle with the fights.

SpoilerShow

Ofcourse the first time I entered the room with "Enter thy grave" I died and the spiders made me reload twice as well, but the further into the game the easier the fights became. I'm playing at hard now and it's actually very easy..

The game emphasis is mostly on the puzzles and they certainly made me struggle, had to look a few up on the internet. Great job on that, but the fighting is a bit too easy imo. There should've been a lot more fights with multiple mobs in places with long corridors with small side hallways with deadends and with less 2x2 rooms. This should result in a lot more challenging fights. Or make the enemy mobs faster and more challenging on harder difficulties. I'm sure this will be done once the modders get their hands on this game.
Don't get me wrong, this game is brilliant. When I heard someone released a new dungeon crawler based on DM I immediately bought the game and thoroughly enjoyed it.

[Sweet_Intestinals]

Which is precisely how the game is designed. I'm fed up with cRPGs being 90% character building and statistical management. Save that for Football Manager, less is definitely more in a Dungeon Master style game. My one and only gripe about Grimrock is that there are too many visible stats and skills. I would really love to see someone do a game in this style that hides EVERY number and allows you to feel your way through your character as they grow & learn by doing things - with feedback on progress and prowess delivered in other ways than by numbers flying up in mid air or appearing when you mouse over things. We've had the enormous potential of computers for decades now in our roleplaying, to immerse us completely in the gameworld, and yet we still want to see character sheets, and the results of dice rolls everywhere! One of the best things about Dungeon Master that I truly miss is that you learned to be better with specific weapons by using them, and you truly didn't know which weapons or armour were better than others unless you tried them out. Where has this mechanic gone from my roleplaying?

Personally, I'd rather play a game than pretend I'm not playing a game. The approach Grimrock takes is suitable for its aim of emulating Dungeon Master and its ilk, but it's certainly not the direction I'd like to see RPGs as a whole taking. Turn based combat is where true roleplaying should lie-- bearing in mind that I take RPGs to be the conversion of pen and paper style rulesets to computer games rather than an opportunity for similitude. That's where its roots lie and that's what I feel the genre's core definition should be. Similitude ought to be its own genre, regardless of how the term "roleplay" can be literally taken.

[Kostas]

2x2 dancing basicly makes any thought-out character building - pointless. You can just go with random party, random stats and random skills and win easily due to 2x2 dancing.

Which is precisely how the game is designed. I'm fed up with cRPGs being 90% character building and statistical management. Save that for Football Manager, less is definitely more in a Dungeon Master style game. My one and only gripe about Grimrock is that there are too many visible stats and skills. I would really love to see someone do a game in this style that hides EVERY number and allows you to feel your way through your character as they grow & learn by doing things - with feedback on progress and prowess delivered in other ways than by numbers flying up in mid air or appearing when you mouse over things. We've had the enormous potential of computers for decades now in our roleplaying, to immerse us completely in the gameworld, and yet we still want to see character sheets, and the results of dice rolls everywhere! One of the best things about Dungeon Master that I truly miss is that you learned to be better with specific weapons by using them, and you truly didn't know which weapons or armour were better than others unless you tried them out. Where has this mechanic gone from my roleplaying?

I'll answer you like Chiller

I GOT IT!

...basically, what you people want is for mobs to have a way to take more shots at the player, so that defensive stats will come into play.

No problem!

Whenever you enter a fight, just stand still for a few seconds and let the mob attack the party a few times. Then proceed as usual. It's that easy!

...you can thank me later.

So if you don't like numbers and info, just don't look at it (some can be disabled in game options too). Don't look at what stats that armor has, don't look at how much damage your weapon hit did.
Let us who don't like it your way have all the info we want. I want the game to be as clear to me as the EotB was (which was AD&D based).
I take my satisfaction from playing the game within known rules. Not from playing around to figure out the fickle unknown rules.

[1varangian]

Coming back to the 2x2 discussion. I definately want to stick to the current fighting system as it's a lot more interesting then just standing infront of an enemy and launching your attacks. It's the real time fight and interaction with the dungeon that makes the fight interesting.
The problem in LoG imo is that the fights and mobs are too easy. Ofcourse this is my personal opinion as I'm sure some people struggle with the fights.

Why do so many people think in extremes?

It doesn't have to be "only movement matters in combat" or "stand still launching attacks". No one is suggesting standing still trading blows is a good idea for this game. So let's move past the hyperbole shall we.

The best gameplay is somewhere in between - the need to move in combat to position your group right with enemies / terrain but defensive stats also coming into play because strafing in circles is not 100% fool proof.

All that needs to be done is make the strafe less reliable. If that requires a monster rebalance I welcome it. I like balanced mechanics where monsters stats are relative to player characters' instead of being 10x to balance for player exploits.

[oodyboo]

Concerning the ideas of making attacking more complicated, holding down buttons to time attacks, sweet zones and whatnot... stuff like that could work if you only had one character. You can't possibly do that with a 4 character party without completely ignoring three of them. You have to be able to control 4 characters in real time without fiddling around with the mouse, 3 characters standing idle.

...

Why do so many people think in extremes?

Excellent Question. The party would be on cooldown while you are rotating through attacks, not necessarily idle while you control one character. Rather than "instantly" clicking all 4 attacks and twiddling your thumbs while you wait for them to get ready again. It would provide a good flow to combat and with a little variety between your characters to break up the monotony of strafing and waiting on cooldowns. Also it doesn't make all that much sense for the entire party to attack simultaneously from a logical standpoint (friendly fire, among other things).

I found that when I do 2x2 strafing with mages, I am essentially controlling one character at a time and cast one spell per strafe (Can do two but it's error-prone and stressful). When I do the same with my melee characters, it's actually a nice relaxed combat pace that would lend itself to some more interesting attack controls.

I don't know if holding-down, sweet-spot, mouse gestures, or whatnot will be 'best,' probably some combination with user options would be good. These more complicated attacks could take enough time, or simply enough player focus, to diminish the ease with which strafing can be perfectly executed.

And so It seems that these ideas align very well with your goals after all.

[Marak]

One thing I just wanted to hop in and point out is that the strength of the monsters in this game being so high/ahead of your characters' isn't totally because the Devs figured you'd be using Circle Strafing to Avoid All Damage - although I'm sure they took it into consideration.

I think one of the main reasons the monsters get so tough so quickly is that it enhances that all-important Feeling of Dread™ that this game fosters so well. It adds to the immersion factor - you're chained together, using whatever equipment you've scraped off the dungeon floor (almost literally), and facing monsters that range from "about your size" to "Oh shit!".

It's about realism. It's about FEAR. It's about what your party of survivalists would HAVE to do in order to live: exploit the fact that they're somewhat more agile/intelligent than their foes. Relying on "cheap tactics" because their handicapped gear and smaller size prevent them from winning in a straight-up, toe-to-toe fight.

Giving the monsters huge health pools and damage that makes you immediately reach for your strafe key(s) enhances that sense of constant danger, that feeling that Death is always around the next bend (or sneaking out of a concealed door that is silently sliding open behind you).

All that said, I tend to agree with the OP. After getting to Floor 7 or so with my original party, I started over with a new party that had better racial choices and a focus on offense to the exclusion of all else - and they're already doing more damage on Floor 4 than my other Party was on Floor 7. Defense doesn't matter beyond "oops, I mis-timed that dodge, good thing my Armor/Evasion was enough to keep me on my feet (this time)" - whereas going all-out on a monster and killing it ASAP means you need to do less dodging, which means you'll take less damage, which means your consumables last longer and you backtrack to the Save Crystals less.

It's all positives and no negatives, which is generally something you want to avoid in RPGs - if a game system has a "right answer", it tends to get stale that much more quickly.